Bacteria contamination inside a thermos bottle
Let's say that I have a pot of boiling stew.
I then pour this, still boiling, inside a thermos bottle, and close the lid right away.
Everything inside the bottle should be sterile at this point, due to the high temperature which will be maintained for over an hour, correct?
Let's say then that I let this sit for maybe 24h.
In this time frame, the temperature of the stew will fall in the danger zone between 60°C and 5°C, and stay there for hours and hours.
Usually, that would mean that the meat in the stew is no longer fit for consumption.
However, given that the content of the bottle was earlier sterile, would it still be safe?
Can bacteria contaminate the content trough the lid?
food-safety
asked yesterday
user73521user73521
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Let's say that I have a pot of boiling stew.
I then pour this, still boiling, inside a thermos bottle, and close the lid right away.
Everything inside the bottle should be sterile at this point, due to the high temperature which will be maintained for over an hour, correct?
Let's say then that I let this sit for maybe 24h.
In this time frame, the temperature of the stew will fall in the danger zone between 60°C and 5°C, and stay there for hours and hours.
Usually, that would mean that the meat in the stew is no longer fit for consumption.
However, given that the content of the bottle was earlier sterile, would it still be safe?
Can bacteria contaminate the content trough the lid?
food-safety
asked yesterday
user73521user73521
261
New contributor
user73521 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
Let's say that I have a pot of boiling stew.
I then pour this, still boiling, inside a thermos bottle, and close the lid right away.
Everything inside the bottle should be sterile at this point, due to the high temperature which will be maintained for over an hour, correct?
Let's say then that I let this sit for maybe 24h.
In this time frame, the temperature of the stew will fall in the danger zone between 60°C and 5°C, and stay there for hours and hours.
Usually, that would mean that the meat in the stew is no longer fit for consumption.
However, given that the content of the bottle was earlier sterile, would it still be safe?
Can bacteria contaminate the content trough the lid?
food-safety
asked yesterday
user73521user73521
261
New contributor
user73521 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Let's say that I have a pot of boiling stew.
I then pour this, still boiling, inside a thermos bottle, and close the lid right away.
Everything inside the bottle should be sterile at this point, due to the high temperature which will be maintained for over an hour, correct?
Let's say then that I let this sit for maybe 24h.
In this time frame, the temperature of the stew will fall in the danger zone between 60°C and 5°C, and stay there for hours and hours.
Usually, that would mean that the meat in the stew is no longer fit for consumption.
However, given that the content of the bottle was earlier sterile, would it still be safe?
Can bacteria contaminate the content trough the lid?
food-safety
food-safety
asked yesterday
user73521user73521
261
New contributor
user73521 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked yesterday
user73521user73521
261
New contributor
user73521 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked yesterday
user73521user73521
261
New contributor
user73521 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked yesterday
user73521user73521
261
asked yesterday
user73521user73521
261
261
New contributor
user73521 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
user73521 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
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1 Answer
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The assumption that it was sterile is wrong. Standard cooking leads to a reduction of bacteria to about log6, so 1 in 100 000 survives. Afterwards, these bacteria multiply exponentially in your soup, potentially achieving levels at which people can get sick.
Your logic will apply to canning. But it is known that the "fill the cooked food into an airtight closing container" is an unsafe canning method even for high acid foods, and a thermos bottle is not guaranteed to be closed airtight. If you want to can soup, you have to follow safe canning procedures, which include a restriction of the ingredients you can use, a restriction in the liquid/solid ratio, the prescription of proper containers, and a sufficiently long sterilization step in a pressure canner.
answered yesterday
rumtscho♦rumtscho
82.5k28191357
What makes this 1 in 100000 of bacteria able to survive in 100°C water for extended periods of time?
– Michael
yesterday
1
@Michael Humans shed about a million particles of biological material per hour, and many of those will be colonized by bacteria. In an ordinary kitchen environment, some of that material will have ended up in the thermos without ever having been in the stew.
– alephzero
yesterday
2
(a) A 6 log reduction means 1 in 1 000 000 survives. (b) A 6 log reduction of vegetative organisms is often called pasteurisation [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization ] (c) safe storage of low acid foods in the absence of air requires killling spores. See "Introduction for Consumers: A Snapshot" on page 3 of "The Bad Bug Book" [fda.gov/downloads/Food/FoodborneIllnessContaminants/…
– user20637
yesterday
1
@alephzero that doesn't explain it though, even those bacteria added in from the air would cook inside the hot liquid in the thermos. Of course there are other concerns like spores and the container not being air-tight (as explained in the comment above and the answer).
– JJJ
21 hours ago
2
There is no explanation of "how", and it is possibly a different combination of causes for each individual bacterium. This is just a general property of biological systems for to their high complexity. Just like individual people have been known to survive over 6 minutes without oxygen in the brain, or to spontaneously heal from cancer. The same initial conditions lead to different outcomes in different individuals, and sometimes the outcome can be radically different.
– rumtscho♦
19 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
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1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
The assumption that it was sterile is wrong. Standard cooking leads to a reduction of bacteria to about log6, so 1 in 100 000 survives. Afterwards, these bacteria multiply exponentially in your soup, potentially achieving levels at which people can get sick.
Your logic will apply to canning. But it is known that the "fill the cooked food into an airtight closing container" is an unsafe canning method even for high acid foods, and a thermos bottle is not guaranteed to be closed airtight. If you want to can soup, you have to follow safe canning procedures, which include a restriction of the ingredients you can use, a restriction in the liquid/solid ratio, the prescription of proper containers, and a sufficiently long sterilization step in a pressure canner.
answered yesterday
rumtscho♦rumtscho
82.5k28191357
What makes this 1 in 100000 of bacteria able to survive in 100°C water for extended periods of time?
– Michael
yesterday
1
@Michael Humans shed about a million particles of biological material per hour, and many of those will be colonized by bacteria. In an ordinary kitchen environment, some of that material will have ended up in the thermos without ever having been in the stew.
– alephzero
yesterday
2
(a) A 6 log reduction means 1 in 1 000 000 survives. (b) A 6 log reduction of vegetative organisms is often called pasteurisation [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization ] (c) safe storage of low acid foods in the absence of air requires killling spores. See "Introduction for Consumers: A Snapshot" on page 3 of "The Bad Bug Book" [fda.gov/downloads/Food/FoodborneIllnessContaminants/…
– user20637
yesterday
1
@alephzero that doesn't explain it though, even those bacteria added in from the air would cook inside the hot liquid in the thermos. Of course there are other concerns like spores and the container not being air-tight (as explained in the comment above and the answer).
– JJJ
21 hours ago
2
There is no explanation of "how", and it is possibly a different combination of causes for each individual bacterium. This is just a general property of biological systems for to their high complexity. Just like individual people have been known to survive over 6 minutes without oxygen in the brain, or to spontaneously heal from cancer. The same initial conditions lead to different outcomes in different individuals, and sometimes the outcome can be radically different.
– rumtscho♦
19 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
The assumption that it was sterile is wrong. Standard cooking leads to a reduction of bacteria to about log6, so 1 in 100 000 survives. Afterwards, these bacteria multiply exponentially in your soup, potentially achieving levels at which people can get sick.
Your logic will apply to canning. But it is known that the "fill the cooked food into an airtight closing container" is an unsafe canning method even for high acid foods, and a thermos bottle is not guaranteed to be closed airtight. If you want to can soup, you have to follow safe canning procedures, which include a restriction of the ingredients you can use, a restriction in the liquid/solid ratio, the prescription of proper containers, and a sufficiently long sterilization step in a pressure canner.
answered yesterday
rumtscho♦rumtscho
82.5k28191357
What makes this 1 in 100000 of bacteria able to survive in 100°C water for extended periods of time?
– Michael
yesterday
1
@Michael Humans shed about a million particles of biological material per hour, and many of those will be colonized by bacteria. In an ordinary kitchen environment, some of that material will have ended up in the thermos without ever having been in the stew.
– alephzero
yesterday
2
(a) A 6 log reduction means 1 in 1 000 000 survives. (b) A 6 log reduction of vegetative organisms is often called pasteurisation [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization ] (c) safe storage of low acid foods in the absence of air requires killling spores. See "Introduction for Consumers: A Snapshot" on page 3 of "The Bad Bug Book" [fda.gov/downloads/Food/FoodborneIllnessContaminants/…
– user20637
yesterday
1
@alephzero that doesn't explain it though, even those bacteria added in from the air would cook inside the hot liquid in the thermos. Of course there are other concerns like spores and the container not being air-tight (as explained in the comment above and the answer).
– JJJ
21 hours ago
2
There is no explanation of "how", and it is possibly a different combination of causes for each individual bacterium. This is just a general property of biological systems for to their high complexity. Just like individual people have been known to survive over 6 minutes without oxygen in the brain, or to spontaneously heal from cancer. The same initial conditions lead to different outcomes in different individuals, and sometimes the outcome can be radically different.
– rumtscho♦
19 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
The assumption that it was sterile is wrong. Standard cooking leads to a reduction of bacteria to about log6, so 1 in 100 000 survives. Afterwards, these bacteria multiply exponentially in your soup, potentially achieving levels at which people can get sick.
Your logic will apply to canning. But it is known that the "fill the cooked food into an airtight closing container" is an unsafe canning method even for high acid foods, and a thermos bottle is not guaranteed to be closed airtight. If you want to can soup, you have to follow safe canning procedures, which include a restriction of the ingredients you can use, a restriction in the liquid/solid ratio, the prescription of proper containers, and a sufficiently long sterilization step in a pressure canner.
answered yesterday
rumtscho♦rumtscho
82.5k28191357
The assumption that it was sterile is wrong. Standard cooking leads to a reduction of bacteria to about log6, so 1 in 100 000 survives. Afterwards, these bacteria multiply exponentially in your soup, potentially achieving levels at which people can get sick.
Your logic will apply to canning. But it is known that the "fill the cooked food into an airtight closing container" is an unsafe canning method even for high acid foods, and a thermos bottle is not guaranteed to be closed airtight. If you want to can soup, you have to follow safe canning procedures, which include a restriction of the ingredients you can use, a restriction in the liquid/solid ratio, the prescription of proper containers, and a sufficiently long sterilization step in a pressure canner.
answered yesterday
rumtscho♦rumtscho
82.5k28191357
answered yesterday
rumtscho♦rumtscho
82.5k28191357
answered yesterday
rumtscho♦rumtscho
82.5k28191357
answered yesterday
rumtscho♦rumtscho
82.5k28191357
82.5k28191357
What makes this 1 in 100000 of bacteria able to survive in 100°C water for extended periods of time?
– Michael
yesterday
1
@Michael Humans shed about a million particles of biological material per hour, and many of those will be colonized by bacteria. In an ordinary kitchen environment, some of that material will have ended up in the thermos without ever having been in the stew.
– alephzero
yesterday
2
(a) A 6 log reduction means 1 in 1 000 000 survives. (b) A 6 log reduction of vegetative organisms is often called pasteurisation [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization ] (c) safe storage of low acid foods in the absence of air requires killling spores. See "Introduction for Consumers: A Snapshot" on page 3 of "The Bad Bug Book" [fda.gov/downloads/Food/FoodborneIllnessContaminants/…
– user20637
yesterday
1
@alephzero that doesn't explain it though, even those bacteria added in from the air would cook inside the hot liquid in the thermos. Of course there are other concerns like spores and the container not being air-tight (as explained in the comment above and the answer).
– JJJ
21 hours ago
2
There is no explanation of "how", and it is possibly a different combination of causes for each individual bacterium. This is just a general property of biological systems for to their high complexity. Just like individual people have been known to survive over 6 minutes without oxygen in the brain, or to spontaneously heal from cancer. The same initial conditions lead to different outcomes in different individuals, and sometimes the outcome can be radically different.
– rumtscho♦
19 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
What makes this 1 in 100000 of bacteria able to survive in 100°C water for extended periods of time?
– Michael
yesterday
1
@Michael Humans shed about a million particles of biological material per hour, and many of those will be colonized by bacteria. In an ordinary kitchen environment, some of that material will have ended up in the thermos without ever having been in the stew.
– alephzero
yesterday
2
(a) A 6 log reduction means 1 in 1 000 000 survives. (b) A 6 log reduction of vegetative organisms is often called pasteurisation [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization ] (c) safe storage of low acid foods in the absence of air requires killling spores. See "Introduction for Consumers: A Snapshot" on page 3 of "The Bad Bug Book" [fda.gov/downloads/Food/FoodborneIllnessContaminants/…
– user20637
yesterday
1
@alephzero that doesn't explain it though, even those bacteria added in from the air would cook inside the hot liquid in the thermos. Of course there are other concerns like spores and the container not being air-tight (as explained in the comment above and the answer).
– JJJ
21 hours ago
2
There is no explanation of "how", and it is possibly a different combination of causes for each individual bacterium. This is just a general property of biological systems for to their high complexity. Just like individual people have been known to survive over 6 minutes without oxygen in the brain, or to spontaneously heal from cancer. The same initial conditions lead to different outcomes in different individuals, and sometimes the outcome can be radically different.
– rumtscho♦
19 hours ago
What makes this 1 in 100000 of bacteria able to survive in 100°C water for extended periods of time?
– Michael
yesterday
What makes this 1 in 100000 of bacteria able to survive in 100°C water for extended periods of time?
– Michael
yesterday
1
1
@Michael Humans shed about a million particles of biological material per hour, and many of those will be colonized by bacteria. In an ordinary kitchen environment, some of that material will have ended up in the thermos without ever having been in the stew.
– alephzero
yesterday
@Michael Humans shed about a million particles of biological material per hour, and many of those will be colonized by bacteria. In an ordinary kitchen environment, some of that material will have ended up in the thermos without ever having been in the stew.
– alephzero
yesterday
2
2
(a) A 6 log reduction means 1 in 1 000 000 survives. (b) A 6 log reduction of vegetative organisms is often called pasteurisation [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization ] (c) safe storage of low acid foods in the absence of air requires killling spores. See "Introduction for Consumers: A Snapshot" on page 3 of "The Bad Bug Book" [fda.gov/downloads/Food/FoodborneIllnessContaminants/…
– user20637
yesterday
(a) A 6 log reduction means 1 in 1 000 000 survives. (b) A 6 log reduction of vegetative organisms is often called pasteurisation [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization ] (c) safe storage of low acid foods in the absence of air requires killling spores. See "Introduction for Consumers: A Snapshot" on page 3 of "The Bad Bug Book" [fda.gov/downloads/Food/FoodborneIllnessContaminants/…
– user20637
yesterday
1
1
@alephzero that doesn't explain it though, even those bacteria added in from the air would cook inside the hot liquid in the thermos. Of course there are other concerns like spores and the container not being air-tight (as explained in the comment above and the answer).
– JJJ
21 hours ago
@alephzero that doesn't explain it though, even those bacteria added in from the air would cook inside the hot liquid in the thermos. Of course there are other concerns like spores and the container not being air-tight (as explained in the comment above and the answer).
– JJJ
21 hours ago
2
2
There is no explanation of "how", and it is possibly a different combination of causes for each individual bacterium. This is just a general property of biological systems for to their high complexity. Just like individual people have been known to survive over 6 minutes without oxygen in the brain, or to spontaneously heal from cancer. The same initial conditions lead to different outcomes in different individuals, and sometimes the outcome can be radically different.
– rumtscho♦
19 hours ago
There is no explanation of "how", and it is possibly a different combination of causes for each individual bacterium. This is just a general property of biological systems for to their high complexity. Just like individual people have been known to survive over 6 minutes without oxygen in the brain, or to spontaneously heal from cancer. The same initial conditions lead to different outcomes in different individuals, and sometimes the outcome can be radically different.
– rumtscho♦
19 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
user73521 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
user73521 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
user73521 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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