Find $f,g$ s.t. $fcirc g=begin{pmatrix}1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 & 8 & 9...
$begingroup$
Let $f$ and $g$ be permutations such that
$$f circ f = id,$$
$$g circ g = id,$$
and
$$fcirc g =begin{pmatrix}
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 10 \
10 & 4 & 5 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 2 & 6 & 3 & 1
end{pmatrix}.$$
Find $f$ and $g$.
I can solve it by a lot of guess work, but I wonder if there is some general method.
group-theory permutations involutions
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $f$ and $g$ be permutations such that
$$f circ f = id,$$
$$g circ g = id,$$
and
$$fcirc g =begin{pmatrix}
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 10 \
10 & 4 & 5 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 2 & 6 & 3 & 1
end{pmatrix}.$$
Find $f$ and $g$.
I can solve it by a lot of guess work, but I wonder if there is some general method.
group-theory permutations involutions
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
When I tried doing a quick program to find solutions by brute force, it seems to have found 30 solutions total.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
Dec 11 '18 at 1:32
$begingroup$
I suggest you accept answers to your previous questions also, especially one of the answers to this one.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:43
$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler, your calculation agree with my solutions. As you can see from my answers the number of ways of choosing $f$ is $2times 3times 5=30$.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $f$ and $g$ be permutations such that
$$f circ f = id,$$
$$g circ g = id,$$
and
$$fcirc g =begin{pmatrix}
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 10 \
10 & 4 & 5 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 2 & 6 & 3 & 1
end{pmatrix}.$$
Find $f$ and $g$.
I can solve it by a lot of guess work, but I wonder if there is some general method.
group-theory permutations involutions
$endgroup$
Let $f$ and $g$ be permutations such that
$$f circ f = id,$$
$$g circ g = id,$$
and
$$fcirc g =begin{pmatrix}
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 10 \
10 & 4 & 5 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 2 & 6 & 3 & 1
end{pmatrix}.$$
Find $f$ and $g$.
I can solve it by a lot of guess work, but I wonder if there is some general method.
group-theory permutations involutions
group-theory permutations involutions
edited Dec 11 '18 at 2:34
Shaun
9,268113684
9,268113684
asked Dec 9 '18 at 23:17
Quo Si ThanQuo Si Than
1467
1467
2
$begingroup$
When I tried doing a quick program to find solutions by brute force, it seems to have found 30 solutions total.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
Dec 11 '18 at 1:32
$begingroup$
I suggest you accept answers to your previous questions also, especially one of the answers to this one.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:43
$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler, your calculation agree with my solutions. As you can see from my answers the number of ways of choosing $f$ is $2times 3times 5=30$.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:22
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
When I tried doing a quick program to find solutions by brute force, it seems to have found 30 solutions total.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
Dec 11 '18 at 1:32
$begingroup$
I suggest you accept answers to your previous questions also, especially one of the answers to this one.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:43
$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler, your calculation agree with my solutions. As you can see from my answers the number of ways of choosing $f$ is $2times 3times 5=30$.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:22
2
2
$begingroup$
When I tried doing a quick program to find solutions by brute force, it seems to have found 30 solutions total.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
Dec 11 '18 at 1:32
$begingroup$
When I tried doing a quick program to find solutions by brute force, it seems to have found 30 solutions total.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
Dec 11 '18 at 1:32
$begingroup$
I suggest you accept answers to your previous questions also, especially one of the answers to this one.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:43
$begingroup$
I suggest you accept answers to your previous questions also, especially one of the answers to this one.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:43
$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler, your calculation agree with my solutions. As you can see from my answers the number of ways of choosing $f$ is $2times 3times 5=30$.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:22
$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler, your calculation agree with my solutions. As you can see from my answers the number of ways of choosing $f$ is $2times 3times 5=30$.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:22
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
A permutation $f$ is an involution if $fcirc f=id$.
As you know, any permutation can be written as a product of disjoint cycles; your permutation is $(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)$. In order to write an arbitrary permutation as a product of two involutions, it suffices (since disjoint permutations commute) to write a cycle of arbitrary length as a product of two involutions. A permutation is an involution if it's a product of disjoint cycles of length $2$. If you experiment a little with multiplying involutions, you might discover the following pattern:
$$(1 2)circ(2 3)=(1 2 3)tag3$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)=(1 2 4 3)tag4$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 5 3)tag5$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)(5 6)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 6 5 3)tag6$$
etc. So a cycle of any length can be obtained by multiplying two involutions. In particular, replacing $1,2,3$ by $2,4,7$ in $(3)$ we get
$$(2 4 7)=(2 4)circ(4 7);$$
replacing $1,2,4,5,3$ by $3,5,8,6,9$ in $(5)$ we get
$$(3 5 8 6 9)=(3 5)(9 8)circ(5 9)(8 6)=(3 5)(8 9)circ(5 9)(6 8);$$
and of course
$$(1 10)=(1 10)circ id;$$
so
$$(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9)circ(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
I.e., you can take
$$f=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9), g=(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
Of course there are other solutions.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Your answer is essentially what I had in mind, @bof. Do you agree?
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:58
$begingroup$
@Shaun I don't know what you had in mind, but I'll take your word for it. By the way, I thought an "idempotent" was an element $a$ satisfying $a^2=a$. So in a group the only idempotent is the identity element.
$endgroup$
– bof
Dec 11 '18 at 3:05
$begingroup$
Thank you, @bof; and you're right: I meant involution of course. Here in England, it was late when I first wrote the answer and late when I came back to it. That's my excuse, anyway.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 3:08
add a comment |
$begingroup$
There is a well-known algorithm for decomposing any given permutation as a product of (not necessarily disjoint) $2$-cycles/transpositions. Such a decomposition of a given $fcirc g$ would, in general, give strong hints about (if not completely determine) the nature of $f$ and $g$.
Why?
Because here $f,g$ are involutions: they square to the identity. Thus they're each (either trivial or) determined by a product of disjoint $2$-cycles (a.k.a. transpositions) (although they may share one or more of those cycles), which are themselves involutions.
See @bof's answer for the same approach, fleshed out.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Well what you are saying is true. But here apart from $f$ and $g$ are idempotent we don't know yet what they are. So we can not apply the algorithm to decompose $f$ and $g$ into transpositions. So I don't see how the algorithm help you in this problem.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 1:48
$begingroup$
You're right, @user9077; thank you. The order of the paragraphs is backward (modulo some minor editing). Give me a minute . . .
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:51
$begingroup$
Is it okay now, @user9077? (For reference: Here's how it used to look.)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:53
$begingroup$
I am not sure Shaun. Just give it a try if you can solve this particular problem using the idea that you have in your mind.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:16
$begingroup$
It's essentially bof's answer, @user9077.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:56
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Here is how I did it. First write $fcirc g$ as a product of disjoint cycles. So here $fcirc g=(1, 10)(2,4,7)(3,5,8,6,9)$. Now
$$begin{align}
gcirc f &=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f \
&=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f^{-1} \
&=(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9)).
end{align}$$
On the other hand $(fcirc g)^{-1}=g^{-1}circ f^{-1}=gcirc f$. So from the provided $fcirc g$ we can invert it to get $gcirc f$ which is $$(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$
Therefore $$(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9))=(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$ and we can define $f$ to satisfy this (notice $f$ is not unique). After this you can find your $g$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks for the edit Shaun. Do you happen to know my friend Hadi Susanto? :D
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 14:47
$begingroup$
You're welcome, @user9077. I believe he and I had a brief conversation last year, yeah; I don't know if he remembers it though. He seems friendly. By the way, I nearly missed your comment as you didn't use the@
thing (like I did in this comment with your username). Please be sure to use it in future :)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 13 '18 at 4:25
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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active
oldest
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$begingroup$
A permutation $f$ is an involution if $fcirc f=id$.
As you know, any permutation can be written as a product of disjoint cycles; your permutation is $(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)$. In order to write an arbitrary permutation as a product of two involutions, it suffices (since disjoint permutations commute) to write a cycle of arbitrary length as a product of two involutions. A permutation is an involution if it's a product of disjoint cycles of length $2$. If you experiment a little with multiplying involutions, you might discover the following pattern:
$$(1 2)circ(2 3)=(1 2 3)tag3$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)=(1 2 4 3)tag4$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 5 3)tag5$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)(5 6)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 6 5 3)tag6$$
etc. So a cycle of any length can be obtained by multiplying two involutions. In particular, replacing $1,2,3$ by $2,4,7$ in $(3)$ we get
$$(2 4 7)=(2 4)circ(4 7);$$
replacing $1,2,4,5,3$ by $3,5,8,6,9$ in $(5)$ we get
$$(3 5 8 6 9)=(3 5)(9 8)circ(5 9)(8 6)=(3 5)(8 9)circ(5 9)(6 8);$$
and of course
$$(1 10)=(1 10)circ id;$$
so
$$(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9)circ(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
I.e., you can take
$$f=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9), g=(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
Of course there are other solutions.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Your answer is essentially what I had in mind, @bof. Do you agree?
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:58
$begingroup$
@Shaun I don't know what you had in mind, but I'll take your word for it. By the way, I thought an "idempotent" was an element $a$ satisfying $a^2=a$. So in a group the only idempotent is the identity element.
$endgroup$
– bof
Dec 11 '18 at 3:05
$begingroup$
Thank you, @bof; and you're right: I meant involution of course. Here in England, it was late when I first wrote the answer and late when I came back to it. That's my excuse, anyway.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 3:08
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A permutation $f$ is an involution if $fcirc f=id$.
As you know, any permutation can be written as a product of disjoint cycles; your permutation is $(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)$. In order to write an arbitrary permutation as a product of two involutions, it suffices (since disjoint permutations commute) to write a cycle of arbitrary length as a product of two involutions. A permutation is an involution if it's a product of disjoint cycles of length $2$. If you experiment a little with multiplying involutions, you might discover the following pattern:
$$(1 2)circ(2 3)=(1 2 3)tag3$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)=(1 2 4 3)tag4$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 5 3)tag5$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)(5 6)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 6 5 3)tag6$$
etc. So a cycle of any length can be obtained by multiplying two involutions. In particular, replacing $1,2,3$ by $2,4,7$ in $(3)$ we get
$$(2 4 7)=(2 4)circ(4 7);$$
replacing $1,2,4,5,3$ by $3,5,8,6,9$ in $(5)$ we get
$$(3 5 8 6 9)=(3 5)(9 8)circ(5 9)(8 6)=(3 5)(8 9)circ(5 9)(6 8);$$
and of course
$$(1 10)=(1 10)circ id;$$
so
$$(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9)circ(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
I.e., you can take
$$f=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9), g=(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
Of course there are other solutions.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Your answer is essentially what I had in mind, @bof. Do you agree?
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:58
$begingroup$
@Shaun I don't know what you had in mind, but I'll take your word for it. By the way, I thought an "idempotent" was an element $a$ satisfying $a^2=a$. So in a group the only idempotent is the identity element.
$endgroup$
– bof
Dec 11 '18 at 3:05
$begingroup$
Thank you, @bof; and you're right: I meant involution of course. Here in England, it was late when I first wrote the answer and late when I came back to it. That's my excuse, anyway.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 3:08
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A permutation $f$ is an involution if $fcirc f=id$.
As you know, any permutation can be written as a product of disjoint cycles; your permutation is $(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)$. In order to write an arbitrary permutation as a product of two involutions, it suffices (since disjoint permutations commute) to write a cycle of arbitrary length as a product of two involutions. A permutation is an involution if it's a product of disjoint cycles of length $2$. If you experiment a little with multiplying involutions, you might discover the following pattern:
$$(1 2)circ(2 3)=(1 2 3)tag3$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)=(1 2 4 3)tag4$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 5 3)tag5$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)(5 6)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 6 5 3)tag6$$
etc. So a cycle of any length can be obtained by multiplying two involutions. In particular, replacing $1,2,3$ by $2,4,7$ in $(3)$ we get
$$(2 4 7)=(2 4)circ(4 7);$$
replacing $1,2,4,5,3$ by $3,5,8,6,9$ in $(5)$ we get
$$(3 5 8 6 9)=(3 5)(9 8)circ(5 9)(8 6)=(3 5)(8 9)circ(5 9)(6 8);$$
and of course
$$(1 10)=(1 10)circ id;$$
so
$$(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9)circ(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
I.e., you can take
$$f=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9), g=(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
Of course there are other solutions.
$endgroup$
A permutation $f$ is an involution if $fcirc f=id$.
As you know, any permutation can be written as a product of disjoint cycles; your permutation is $(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)$. In order to write an arbitrary permutation as a product of two involutions, it suffices (since disjoint permutations commute) to write a cycle of arbitrary length as a product of two involutions. A permutation is an involution if it's a product of disjoint cycles of length $2$. If you experiment a little with multiplying involutions, you might discover the following pattern:
$$(1 2)circ(2 3)=(1 2 3)tag3$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)=(1 2 4 3)tag4$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 5 3)tag5$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)(5 6)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 6 5 3)tag6$$
etc. So a cycle of any length can be obtained by multiplying two involutions. In particular, replacing $1,2,3$ by $2,4,7$ in $(3)$ we get
$$(2 4 7)=(2 4)circ(4 7);$$
replacing $1,2,4,5,3$ by $3,5,8,6,9$ in $(5)$ we get
$$(3 5 8 6 9)=(3 5)(9 8)circ(5 9)(8 6)=(3 5)(8 9)circ(5 9)(6 8);$$
and of course
$$(1 10)=(1 10)circ id;$$
so
$$(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9)circ(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
I.e., you can take
$$f=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9), g=(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
Of course there are other solutions.
answered Dec 11 '18 at 2:20
bofbof
52.1k558121
52.1k558121
$begingroup$
Your answer is essentially what I had in mind, @bof. Do you agree?
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:58
$begingroup$
@Shaun I don't know what you had in mind, but I'll take your word for it. By the way, I thought an "idempotent" was an element $a$ satisfying $a^2=a$. So in a group the only idempotent is the identity element.
$endgroup$
– bof
Dec 11 '18 at 3:05
$begingroup$
Thank you, @bof; and you're right: I meant involution of course. Here in England, it was late when I first wrote the answer and late when I came back to it. That's my excuse, anyway.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 3:08
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your answer is essentially what I had in mind, @bof. Do you agree?
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:58
$begingroup$
@Shaun I don't know what you had in mind, but I'll take your word for it. By the way, I thought an "idempotent" was an element $a$ satisfying $a^2=a$. So in a group the only idempotent is the identity element.
$endgroup$
– bof
Dec 11 '18 at 3:05
$begingroup$
Thank you, @bof; and you're right: I meant involution of course. Here in England, it was late when I first wrote the answer and late when I came back to it. That's my excuse, anyway.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 3:08
$begingroup$
Your answer is essentially what I had in mind, @bof. Do you agree?
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:58
$begingroup$
Your answer is essentially what I had in mind, @bof. Do you agree?
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:58
$begingroup$
@Shaun I don't know what you had in mind, but I'll take your word for it. By the way, I thought an "idempotent" was an element $a$ satisfying $a^2=a$. So in a group the only idempotent is the identity element.
$endgroup$
– bof
Dec 11 '18 at 3:05
$begingroup$
@Shaun I don't know what you had in mind, but I'll take your word for it. By the way, I thought an "idempotent" was an element $a$ satisfying $a^2=a$. So in a group the only idempotent is the identity element.
$endgroup$
– bof
Dec 11 '18 at 3:05
$begingroup$
Thank you, @bof; and you're right: I meant involution of course. Here in England, it was late when I first wrote the answer and late when I came back to it. That's my excuse, anyway.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 3:08
$begingroup$
Thank you, @bof; and you're right: I meant involution of course. Here in England, it was late when I first wrote the answer and late when I came back to it. That's my excuse, anyway.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 3:08
add a comment |
$begingroup$
There is a well-known algorithm for decomposing any given permutation as a product of (not necessarily disjoint) $2$-cycles/transpositions. Such a decomposition of a given $fcirc g$ would, in general, give strong hints about (if not completely determine) the nature of $f$ and $g$.
Why?
Because here $f,g$ are involutions: they square to the identity. Thus they're each (either trivial or) determined by a product of disjoint $2$-cycles (a.k.a. transpositions) (although they may share one or more of those cycles), which are themselves involutions.
See @bof's answer for the same approach, fleshed out.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Well what you are saying is true. But here apart from $f$ and $g$ are idempotent we don't know yet what they are. So we can not apply the algorithm to decompose $f$ and $g$ into transpositions. So I don't see how the algorithm help you in this problem.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 1:48
$begingroup$
You're right, @user9077; thank you. The order of the paragraphs is backward (modulo some minor editing). Give me a minute . . .
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:51
$begingroup$
Is it okay now, @user9077? (For reference: Here's how it used to look.)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:53
$begingroup$
I am not sure Shaun. Just give it a try if you can solve this particular problem using the idea that you have in your mind.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:16
$begingroup$
It's essentially bof's answer, @user9077.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:56
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
There is a well-known algorithm for decomposing any given permutation as a product of (not necessarily disjoint) $2$-cycles/transpositions. Such a decomposition of a given $fcirc g$ would, in general, give strong hints about (if not completely determine) the nature of $f$ and $g$.
Why?
Because here $f,g$ are involutions: they square to the identity. Thus they're each (either trivial or) determined by a product of disjoint $2$-cycles (a.k.a. transpositions) (although they may share one or more of those cycles), which are themselves involutions.
See @bof's answer for the same approach, fleshed out.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Well what you are saying is true. But here apart from $f$ and $g$ are idempotent we don't know yet what they are. So we can not apply the algorithm to decompose $f$ and $g$ into transpositions. So I don't see how the algorithm help you in this problem.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 1:48
$begingroup$
You're right, @user9077; thank you. The order of the paragraphs is backward (modulo some minor editing). Give me a minute . . .
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:51
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Is it okay now, @user9077? (For reference: Here's how it used to look.)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:53
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I am not sure Shaun. Just give it a try if you can solve this particular problem using the idea that you have in your mind.
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– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:16
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It's essentially bof's answer, @user9077.
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– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:56
|
show 1 more comment
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There is a well-known algorithm for decomposing any given permutation as a product of (not necessarily disjoint) $2$-cycles/transpositions. Such a decomposition of a given $fcirc g$ would, in general, give strong hints about (if not completely determine) the nature of $f$ and $g$.
Why?
Because here $f,g$ are involutions: they square to the identity. Thus they're each (either trivial or) determined by a product of disjoint $2$-cycles (a.k.a. transpositions) (although they may share one or more of those cycles), which are themselves involutions.
See @bof's answer for the same approach, fleshed out.
$endgroup$
There is a well-known algorithm for decomposing any given permutation as a product of (not necessarily disjoint) $2$-cycles/transpositions. Such a decomposition of a given $fcirc g$ would, in general, give strong hints about (if not completely determine) the nature of $f$ and $g$.
Why?
Because here $f,g$ are involutions: they square to the identity. Thus they're each (either trivial or) determined by a product of disjoint $2$-cycles (a.k.a. transpositions) (although they may share one or more of those cycles), which are themselves involutions.
See @bof's answer for the same approach, fleshed out.
edited Dec 11 '18 at 3:10
answered Dec 10 '18 at 5:36
ShaunShaun
9,268113684
9,268113684
1
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Well what you are saying is true. But here apart from $f$ and $g$ are idempotent we don't know yet what they are. So we can not apply the algorithm to decompose $f$ and $g$ into transpositions. So I don't see how the algorithm help you in this problem.
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– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 1:48
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You're right, @user9077; thank you. The order of the paragraphs is backward (modulo some minor editing). Give me a minute . . .
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– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:51
$begingroup$
Is it okay now, @user9077? (For reference: Here's how it used to look.)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:53
$begingroup$
I am not sure Shaun. Just give it a try if you can solve this particular problem using the idea that you have in your mind.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:16
$begingroup$
It's essentially bof's answer, @user9077.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:56
|
show 1 more comment
1
$begingroup$
Well what you are saying is true. But here apart from $f$ and $g$ are idempotent we don't know yet what they are. So we can not apply the algorithm to decompose $f$ and $g$ into transpositions. So I don't see how the algorithm help you in this problem.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 1:48
$begingroup$
You're right, @user9077; thank you. The order of the paragraphs is backward (modulo some minor editing). Give me a minute . . .
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:51
$begingroup$
Is it okay now, @user9077? (For reference: Here's how it used to look.)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:53
$begingroup$
I am not sure Shaun. Just give it a try if you can solve this particular problem using the idea that you have in your mind.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:16
$begingroup$
It's essentially bof's answer, @user9077.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:56
1
1
$begingroup$
Well what you are saying is true. But here apart from $f$ and $g$ are idempotent we don't know yet what they are. So we can not apply the algorithm to decompose $f$ and $g$ into transpositions. So I don't see how the algorithm help you in this problem.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 1:48
$begingroup$
Well what you are saying is true. But here apart from $f$ and $g$ are idempotent we don't know yet what they are. So we can not apply the algorithm to decompose $f$ and $g$ into transpositions. So I don't see how the algorithm help you in this problem.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 1:48
$begingroup$
You're right, @user9077; thank you. The order of the paragraphs is backward (modulo some minor editing). Give me a minute . . .
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:51
$begingroup$
You're right, @user9077; thank you. The order of the paragraphs is backward (modulo some minor editing). Give me a minute . . .
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:51
$begingroup$
Is it okay now, @user9077? (For reference: Here's how it used to look.)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:53
$begingroup$
Is it okay now, @user9077? (For reference: Here's how it used to look.)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:53
$begingroup$
I am not sure Shaun. Just give it a try if you can solve this particular problem using the idea that you have in your mind.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:16
$begingroup$
I am not sure Shaun. Just give it a try if you can solve this particular problem using the idea that you have in your mind.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:16
$begingroup$
It's essentially bof's answer, @user9077.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:56
$begingroup$
It's essentially bof's answer, @user9077.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:56
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Here is how I did it. First write $fcirc g$ as a product of disjoint cycles. So here $fcirc g=(1, 10)(2,4,7)(3,5,8,6,9)$. Now
$$begin{align}
gcirc f &=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f \
&=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f^{-1} \
&=(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9)).
end{align}$$
On the other hand $(fcirc g)^{-1}=g^{-1}circ f^{-1}=gcirc f$. So from the provided $fcirc g$ we can invert it to get $gcirc f$ which is $$(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$
Therefore $$(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9))=(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$ and we can define $f$ to satisfy this (notice $f$ is not unique). After this you can find your $g$.
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Thanks for the edit Shaun. Do you happen to know my friend Hadi Susanto? :D
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– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 14:47
$begingroup$
You're welcome, @user9077. I believe he and I had a brief conversation last year, yeah; I don't know if he remembers it though. He seems friendly. By the way, I nearly missed your comment as you didn't use the@
thing (like I did in this comment with your username). Please be sure to use it in future :)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 13 '18 at 4:25
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here is how I did it. First write $fcirc g$ as a product of disjoint cycles. So here $fcirc g=(1, 10)(2,4,7)(3,5,8,6,9)$. Now
$$begin{align}
gcirc f &=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f \
&=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f^{-1} \
&=(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9)).
end{align}$$
On the other hand $(fcirc g)^{-1}=g^{-1}circ f^{-1}=gcirc f$. So from the provided $fcirc g$ we can invert it to get $gcirc f$ which is $$(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$
Therefore $$(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9))=(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$ and we can define $f$ to satisfy this (notice $f$ is not unique). After this you can find your $g$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks for the edit Shaun. Do you happen to know my friend Hadi Susanto? :D
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 14:47
$begingroup$
You're welcome, @user9077. I believe he and I had a brief conversation last year, yeah; I don't know if he remembers it though. He seems friendly. By the way, I nearly missed your comment as you didn't use the@
thing (like I did in this comment with your username). Please be sure to use it in future :)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 13 '18 at 4:25
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here is how I did it. First write $fcirc g$ as a product of disjoint cycles. So here $fcirc g=(1, 10)(2,4,7)(3,5,8,6,9)$. Now
$$begin{align}
gcirc f &=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f \
&=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f^{-1} \
&=(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9)).
end{align}$$
On the other hand $(fcirc g)^{-1}=g^{-1}circ f^{-1}=gcirc f$. So from the provided $fcirc g$ we can invert it to get $gcirc f$ which is $$(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$
Therefore $$(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9))=(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$ and we can define $f$ to satisfy this (notice $f$ is not unique). After this you can find your $g$.
$endgroup$
Here is how I did it. First write $fcirc g$ as a product of disjoint cycles. So here $fcirc g=(1, 10)(2,4,7)(3,5,8,6,9)$. Now
$$begin{align}
gcirc f &=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f \
&=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f^{-1} \
&=(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9)).
end{align}$$
On the other hand $(fcirc g)^{-1}=g^{-1}circ f^{-1}=gcirc f$. So from the provided $fcirc g$ we can invert it to get $gcirc f$ which is $$(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$
Therefore $$(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9))=(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$ and we can define $f$ to satisfy this (notice $f$ is not unique). After this you can find your $g$.
edited Dec 11 '18 at 6:08
Shaun
9,268113684
9,268113684
answered Dec 11 '18 at 2:10
user9077user9077
1,239612
1,239612
$begingroup$
Thanks for the edit Shaun. Do you happen to know my friend Hadi Susanto? :D
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 14:47
$begingroup$
You're welcome, @user9077. I believe he and I had a brief conversation last year, yeah; I don't know if he remembers it though. He seems friendly. By the way, I nearly missed your comment as you didn't use the@
thing (like I did in this comment with your username). Please be sure to use it in future :)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 13 '18 at 4:25
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thanks for the edit Shaun. Do you happen to know my friend Hadi Susanto? :D
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 14:47
$begingroup$
You're welcome, @user9077. I believe he and I had a brief conversation last year, yeah; I don't know if he remembers it though. He seems friendly. By the way, I nearly missed your comment as you didn't use the@
thing (like I did in this comment with your username). Please be sure to use it in future :)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 13 '18 at 4:25
$begingroup$
Thanks for the edit Shaun. Do you happen to know my friend Hadi Susanto? :D
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 14:47
$begingroup$
Thanks for the edit Shaun. Do you happen to know my friend Hadi Susanto? :D
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 14:47
$begingroup$
You're welcome, @user9077. I believe he and I had a brief conversation last year, yeah; I don't know if he remembers it though. He seems friendly. By the way, I nearly missed your comment as you didn't use the
@
thing (like I did in this comment with your username). Please be sure to use it in future :)$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 13 '18 at 4:25
$begingroup$
You're welcome, @user9077. I believe he and I had a brief conversation last year, yeah; I don't know if he remembers it though. He seems friendly. By the way, I nearly missed your comment as you didn't use the
@
thing (like I did in this comment with your username). Please be sure to use it in future :)$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 13 '18 at 4:25
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
When I tried doing a quick program to find solutions by brute force, it seems to have found 30 solutions total.
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– Daniel Schepler
Dec 11 '18 at 1:32
$begingroup$
I suggest you accept answers to your previous questions also, especially one of the answers to this one.
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– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:43
$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler, your calculation agree with my solutions. As you can see from my answers the number of ways of choosing $f$ is $2times 3times 5=30$.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:22