$X$ is locally compact, Hausdorff, and has a countable family of compact subsets covering $X$, then $X$ is...











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Suppose $X$ is locally compact, Hausdorff, and has a countable family of compact subsets whose union is all of $X$. I want to show that $X$ is second-countable.
Suppose the family of countable compact subsets are labelled $C_i$, $i in Bbb N$,
Then there are a couple of ideas that come to mind but I am having trouble putting it all together.



1) Taking the complements of the $C_i$ (problem: what if an element is in all of them, also the complements might not satisfy the requirements of a basis)



2) Using local compactness to say that every point has a compact set containing it with an open neighborhood (also containing it), but how will this relate to the $C_i$ ?



Any hints appreciated.










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    up vote
    2
    down vote

    favorite












    Suppose $X$ is locally compact, Hausdorff, and has a countable family of compact subsets whose union is all of $X$. I want to show that $X$ is second-countable.
    Suppose the family of countable compact subsets are labelled $C_i$, $i in Bbb N$,
    Then there are a couple of ideas that come to mind but I am having trouble putting it all together.



    1) Taking the complements of the $C_i$ (problem: what if an element is in all of them, also the complements might not satisfy the requirements of a basis)



    2) Using local compactness to say that every point has a compact set containing it with an open neighborhood (also containing it), but how will this relate to the $C_i$ ?



    Any hints appreciated.










    share|cite|improve this question


























      up vote
      2
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      2
      down vote

      favorite











      Suppose $X$ is locally compact, Hausdorff, and has a countable family of compact subsets whose union is all of $X$. I want to show that $X$ is second-countable.
      Suppose the family of countable compact subsets are labelled $C_i$, $i in Bbb N$,
      Then there are a couple of ideas that come to mind but I am having trouble putting it all together.



      1) Taking the complements of the $C_i$ (problem: what if an element is in all of them, also the complements might not satisfy the requirements of a basis)



      2) Using local compactness to say that every point has a compact set containing it with an open neighborhood (also containing it), but how will this relate to the $C_i$ ?



      Any hints appreciated.










      share|cite|improve this question















      Suppose $X$ is locally compact, Hausdorff, and has a countable family of compact subsets whose union is all of $X$. I want to show that $X$ is second-countable.
      Suppose the family of countable compact subsets are labelled $C_i$, $i in Bbb N$,
      Then there are a couple of ideas that come to mind but I am having trouble putting it all together.



      1) Taking the complements of the $C_i$ (problem: what if an element is in all of them, also the complements might not satisfy the requirements of a basis)



      2) Using local compactness to say that every point has a compact set containing it with an open neighborhood (also containing it), but how will this relate to the $C_i$ ?



      Any hints appreciated.







      general-topology






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      share|cite|improve this question













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      edited Nov 15 at 4:57

























      asked Nov 15 at 4:07









      IntegrateThis

      1,6971717




      1,6971717






















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes

















          up vote
          3
          down vote



          accepted










          It is not even true that compact Hausdorff spaces are second-countable. (Of course, a compact Hausdorff space is locally compact and can be covered by a countable family of compact subsets.)



          An example is the ordinal space $[ 0 , omega_1 ]$ (where $omega_1$ denotes the least uncountable ordinal).




          • As a linearly-ordered space, $[0 , omega_1 ]$ is Hausdorff.

          • Since $[0 , omega_1]$ has a greatest element, it is compact (this is essentially because there are no infinite strictly decreasing sequences of ordinals).

          • It is not second-countable because any base must include the singletons ${ alpha }$ where $alpha < omega_1$ is a successor ordinal, and there are uncountably many of these.


          More information about this space can be found on the following post on Dan Ma's Topology Blog:




          • The First Uncountable Ordinal


          (If you want a non-compact example of a locally compact σ-compact Hausdorff space that is not second-countable you can just take a disjoint union of countably-infinite copies of $[0,omega_1]$.)






          share|cite|improve this answer























          • So my conclusion is false?
            – IntegrateThis
            Nov 15 at 5:32






          • 1




            @IntegrateThis Correct: it is not true that every locally compact, σ-compact Hausdorff space is second-countable.
            – stochastic randomness
            Nov 15 at 5:55










          • +1............ $[0,omega_1]$ is not even first-countable.
            – DanielWainfleet
            Nov 15 at 7:52










          • Why dooes the base have to include singletons and not larger open sets that could encompass them
            – IntegrateThis
            Nov 18 at 3:51








          • 1




            @IntegrateThis Note that given a $alpha < omega_1$ the open interval $( alpha , alpha+2)$ is the singleton ${ alpha+1 }$, so these singletons are open. If $mathcal{B}$ is a base, for every such $alpha+1$ there must be some $U in mathcal{B}$ with $alpha+1 in U subseteq { alpha+1 }$, meaning $U = { alpha + 1 }$. (More generally, call an open subset $U$ of a topological space $X$ minimally open if there is no open set $V$ satisfying $emptyset subsetneq V subsetneq U$. Then a base for a topological space must include all of the minimally open subsets.)
            – stochastic randomness
            Nov 18 at 6:08


















          up vote
          2
          down vote













          I think the following qualifies as a counterexample . . .



          Let $k$ be a cardinal number with $k > c$, where $c=|mathbb{R}|$.



          Let $I=[0,1]$ with the usual topology, and let $X$ be the product of $k$ copies of $I$.



          Then





          • $X$ is compact and Hausdorff.$\[4pt]$


          • $X$ is locally compact.$\[4pt]$


          • $X$ is covered by itself, so $X$ qualifies as being covered by a countable union of compact sets.$\[4pt]$

          • The cardinality of the topology on $X$ is greater than $c$ (since $k > c$).$\[4pt]$


          But $X$ is not second countable.



          Suppose instead that $X$ had a countable base, $B$ say.



          Then since every open subset of $X$ is the union of some subset of $B$, it would follow that the cardinality of the topology on $X$ is at most the cardinality of the power set of $B$, hence at most $c$, contradiction.






          share|cite|improve this answer

















          • 1




            Right. And $kgtmathfrak c$ is more than you need: if $k$ is an uncountable cardinal, then $I^k$ is not even first countable. If $kgtmathfrak c$ then $I^k$ is not separable.
            – bof
            Nov 15 at 6:04











          Your Answer





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          2 Answers
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          active

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          up vote
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          down vote



          accepted










          It is not even true that compact Hausdorff spaces are second-countable. (Of course, a compact Hausdorff space is locally compact and can be covered by a countable family of compact subsets.)



          An example is the ordinal space $[ 0 , omega_1 ]$ (where $omega_1$ denotes the least uncountable ordinal).




          • As a linearly-ordered space, $[0 , omega_1 ]$ is Hausdorff.

          • Since $[0 , omega_1]$ has a greatest element, it is compact (this is essentially because there are no infinite strictly decreasing sequences of ordinals).

          • It is not second-countable because any base must include the singletons ${ alpha }$ where $alpha < omega_1$ is a successor ordinal, and there are uncountably many of these.


          More information about this space can be found on the following post on Dan Ma's Topology Blog:




          • The First Uncountable Ordinal


          (If you want a non-compact example of a locally compact σ-compact Hausdorff space that is not second-countable you can just take a disjoint union of countably-infinite copies of $[0,omega_1]$.)






          share|cite|improve this answer























          • So my conclusion is false?
            – IntegrateThis
            Nov 15 at 5:32






          • 1




            @IntegrateThis Correct: it is not true that every locally compact, σ-compact Hausdorff space is second-countable.
            – stochastic randomness
            Nov 15 at 5:55










          • +1............ $[0,omega_1]$ is not even first-countable.
            – DanielWainfleet
            Nov 15 at 7:52










          • Why dooes the base have to include singletons and not larger open sets that could encompass them
            – IntegrateThis
            Nov 18 at 3:51








          • 1




            @IntegrateThis Note that given a $alpha < omega_1$ the open interval $( alpha , alpha+2)$ is the singleton ${ alpha+1 }$, so these singletons are open. If $mathcal{B}$ is a base, for every such $alpha+1$ there must be some $U in mathcal{B}$ with $alpha+1 in U subseteq { alpha+1 }$, meaning $U = { alpha + 1 }$. (More generally, call an open subset $U$ of a topological space $X$ minimally open if there is no open set $V$ satisfying $emptyset subsetneq V subsetneq U$. Then a base for a topological space must include all of the minimally open subsets.)
            – stochastic randomness
            Nov 18 at 6:08















          up vote
          3
          down vote



          accepted










          It is not even true that compact Hausdorff spaces are second-countable. (Of course, a compact Hausdorff space is locally compact and can be covered by a countable family of compact subsets.)



          An example is the ordinal space $[ 0 , omega_1 ]$ (where $omega_1$ denotes the least uncountable ordinal).




          • As a linearly-ordered space, $[0 , omega_1 ]$ is Hausdorff.

          • Since $[0 , omega_1]$ has a greatest element, it is compact (this is essentially because there are no infinite strictly decreasing sequences of ordinals).

          • It is not second-countable because any base must include the singletons ${ alpha }$ where $alpha < omega_1$ is a successor ordinal, and there are uncountably many of these.


          More information about this space can be found on the following post on Dan Ma's Topology Blog:




          • The First Uncountable Ordinal


          (If you want a non-compact example of a locally compact σ-compact Hausdorff space that is not second-countable you can just take a disjoint union of countably-infinite copies of $[0,omega_1]$.)






          share|cite|improve this answer























          • So my conclusion is false?
            – IntegrateThis
            Nov 15 at 5:32






          • 1




            @IntegrateThis Correct: it is not true that every locally compact, σ-compact Hausdorff space is second-countable.
            – stochastic randomness
            Nov 15 at 5:55










          • +1............ $[0,omega_1]$ is not even first-countable.
            – DanielWainfleet
            Nov 15 at 7:52










          • Why dooes the base have to include singletons and not larger open sets that could encompass them
            – IntegrateThis
            Nov 18 at 3:51








          • 1




            @IntegrateThis Note that given a $alpha < omega_1$ the open interval $( alpha , alpha+2)$ is the singleton ${ alpha+1 }$, so these singletons are open. If $mathcal{B}$ is a base, for every such $alpha+1$ there must be some $U in mathcal{B}$ with $alpha+1 in U subseteq { alpha+1 }$, meaning $U = { alpha + 1 }$. (More generally, call an open subset $U$ of a topological space $X$ minimally open if there is no open set $V$ satisfying $emptyset subsetneq V subsetneq U$. Then a base for a topological space must include all of the minimally open subsets.)
            – stochastic randomness
            Nov 18 at 6:08













          up vote
          3
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          3
          down vote



          accepted






          It is not even true that compact Hausdorff spaces are second-countable. (Of course, a compact Hausdorff space is locally compact and can be covered by a countable family of compact subsets.)



          An example is the ordinal space $[ 0 , omega_1 ]$ (where $omega_1$ denotes the least uncountable ordinal).




          • As a linearly-ordered space, $[0 , omega_1 ]$ is Hausdorff.

          • Since $[0 , omega_1]$ has a greatest element, it is compact (this is essentially because there are no infinite strictly decreasing sequences of ordinals).

          • It is not second-countable because any base must include the singletons ${ alpha }$ where $alpha < omega_1$ is a successor ordinal, and there are uncountably many of these.


          More information about this space can be found on the following post on Dan Ma's Topology Blog:




          • The First Uncountable Ordinal


          (If you want a non-compact example of a locally compact σ-compact Hausdorff space that is not second-countable you can just take a disjoint union of countably-infinite copies of $[0,omega_1]$.)






          share|cite|improve this answer














          It is not even true that compact Hausdorff spaces are second-countable. (Of course, a compact Hausdorff space is locally compact and can be covered by a countable family of compact subsets.)



          An example is the ordinal space $[ 0 , omega_1 ]$ (where $omega_1$ denotes the least uncountable ordinal).




          • As a linearly-ordered space, $[0 , omega_1 ]$ is Hausdorff.

          • Since $[0 , omega_1]$ has a greatest element, it is compact (this is essentially because there are no infinite strictly decreasing sequences of ordinals).

          • It is not second-countable because any base must include the singletons ${ alpha }$ where $alpha < omega_1$ is a successor ordinal, and there are uncountably many of these.


          More information about this space can be found on the following post on Dan Ma's Topology Blog:




          • The First Uncountable Ordinal


          (If you want a non-compact example of a locally compact σ-compact Hausdorff space that is not second-countable you can just take a disjoint union of countably-infinite copies of $[0,omega_1]$.)







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Nov 15 at 6:09

























          answered Nov 15 at 5:20









          stochastic randomness

          1687




          1687












          • So my conclusion is false?
            – IntegrateThis
            Nov 15 at 5:32






          • 1




            @IntegrateThis Correct: it is not true that every locally compact, σ-compact Hausdorff space is second-countable.
            – stochastic randomness
            Nov 15 at 5:55










          • +1............ $[0,omega_1]$ is not even first-countable.
            – DanielWainfleet
            Nov 15 at 7:52










          • Why dooes the base have to include singletons and not larger open sets that could encompass them
            – IntegrateThis
            Nov 18 at 3:51








          • 1




            @IntegrateThis Note that given a $alpha < omega_1$ the open interval $( alpha , alpha+2)$ is the singleton ${ alpha+1 }$, so these singletons are open. If $mathcal{B}$ is a base, for every such $alpha+1$ there must be some $U in mathcal{B}$ with $alpha+1 in U subseteq { alpha+1 }$, meaning $U = { alpha + 1 }$. (More generally, call an open subset $U$ of a topological space $X$ minimally open if there is no open set $V$ satisfying $emptyset subsetneq V subsetneq U$. Then a base for a topological space must include all of the minimally open subsets.)
            – stochastic randomness
            Nov 18 at 6:08


















          • So my conclusion is false?
            – IntegrateThis
            Nov 15 at 5:32






          • 1




            @IntegrateThis Correct: it is not true that every locally compact, σ-compact Hausdorff space is second-countable.
            – stochastic randomness
            Nov 15 at 5:55










          • +1............ $[0,omega_1]$ is not even first-countable.
            – DanielWainfleet
            Nov 15 at 7:52










          • Why dooes the base have to include singletons and not larger open sets that could encompass them
            – IntegrateThis
            Nov 18 at 3:51








          • 1




            @IntegrateThis Note that given a $alpha < omega_1$ the open interval $( alpha , alpha+2)$ is the singleton ${ alpha+1 }$, so these singletons are open. If $mathcal{B}$ is a base, for every such $alpha+1$ there must be some $U in mathcal{B}$ with $alpha+1 in U subseteq { alpha+1 }$, meaning $U = { alpha + 1 }$. (More generally, call an open subset $U$ of a topological space $X$ minimally open if there is no open set $V$ satisfying $emptyset subsetneq V subsetneq U$. Then a base for a topological space must include all of the minimally open subsets.)
            – stochastic randomness
            Nov 18 at 6:08
















          So my conclusion is false?
          – IntegrateThis
          Nov 15 at 5:32




          So my conclusion is false?
          – IntegrateThis
          Nov 15 at 5:32




          1




          1




          @IntegrateThis Correct: it is not true that every locally compact, σ-compact Hausdorff space is second-countable.
          – stochastic randomness
          Nov 15 at 5:55




          @IntegrateThis Correct: it is not true that every locally compact, σ-compact Hausdorff space is second-countable.
          – stochastic randomness
          Nov 15 at 5:55












          +1............ $[0,omega_1]$ is not even first-countable.
          – DanielWainfleet
          Nov 15 at 7:52




          +1............ $[0,omega_1]$ is not even first-countable.
          – DanielWainfleet
          Nov 15 at 7:52












          Why dooes the base have to include singletons and not larger open sets that could encompass them
          – IntegrateThis
          Nov 18 at 3:51






          Why dooes the base have to include singletons and not larger open sets that could encompass them
          – IntegrateThis
          Nov 18 at 3:51






          1




          1




          @IntegrateThis Note that given a $alpha < omega_1$ the open interval $( alpha , alpha+2)$ is the singleton ${ alpha+1 }$, so these singletons are open. If $mathcal{B}$ is a base, for every such $alpha+1$ there must be some $U in mathcal{B}$ with $alpha+1 in U subseteq { alpha+1 }$, meaning $U = { alpha + 1 }$. (More generally, call an open subset $U$ of a topological space $X$ minimally open if there is no open set $V$ satisfying $emptyset subsetneq V subsetneq U$. Then a base for a topological space must include all of the minimally open subsets.)
          – stochastic randomness
          Nov 18 at 6:08




          @IntegrateThis Note that given a $alpha < omega_1$ the open interval $( alpha , alpha+2)$ is the singleton ${ alpha+1 }$, so these singletons are open. If $mathcal{B}$ is a base, for every such $alpha+1$ there must be some $U in mathcal{B}$ with $alpha+1 in U subseteq { alpha+1 }$, meaning $U = { alpha + 1 }$. (More generally, call an open subset $U$ of a topological space $X$ minimally open if there is no open set $V$ satisfying $emptyset subsetneq V subsetneq U$. Then a base for a topological space must include all of the minimally open subsets.)
          – stochastic randomness
          Nov 18 at 6:08










          up vote
          2
          down vote













          I think the following qualifies as a counterexample . . .



          Let $k$ be a cardinal number with $k > c$, where $c=|mathbb{R}|$.



          Let $I=[0,1]$ with the usual topology, and let $X$ be the product of $k$ copies of $I$.



          Then





          • $X$ is compact and Hausdorff.$\[4pt]$


          • $X$ is locally compact.$\[4pt]$


          • $X$ is covered by itself, so $X$ qualifies as being covered by a countable union of compact sets.$\[4pt]$

          • The cardinality of the topology on $X$ is greater than $c$ (since $k > c$).$\[4pt]$


          But $X$ is not second countable.



          Suppose instead that $X$ had a countable base, $B$ say.



          Then since every open subset of $X$ is the union of some subset of $B$, it would follow that the cardinality of the topology on $X$ is at most the cardinality of the power set of $B$, hence at most $c$, contradiction.






          share|cite|improve this answer

















          • 1




            Right. And $kgtmathfrak c$ is more than you need: if $k$ is an uncountable cardinal, then $I^k$ is not even first countable. If $kgtmathfrak c$ then $I^k$ is not separable.
            – bof
            Nov 15 at 6:04















          up vote
          2
          down vote













          I think the following qualifies as a counterexample . . .



          Let $k$ be a cardinal number with $k > c$, where $c=|mathbb{R}|$.



          Let $I=[0,1]$ with the usual topology, and let $X$ be the product of $k$ copies of $I$.



          Then





          • $X$ is compact and Hausdorff.$\[4pt]$


          • $X$ is locally compact.$\[4pt]$


          • $X$ is covered by itself, so $X$ qualifies as being covered by a countable union of compact sets.$\[4pt]$

          • The cardinality of the topology on $X$ is greater than $c$ (since $k > c$).$\[4pt]$


          But $X$ is not second countable.



          Suppose instead that $X$ had a countable base, $B$ say.



          Then since every open subset of $X$ is the union of some subset of $B$, it would follow that the cardinality of the topology on $X$ is at most the cardinality of the power set of $B$, hence at most $c$, contradiction.






          share|cite|improve this answer

















          • 1




            Right. And $kgtmathfrak c$ is more than you need: if $k$ is an uncountable cardinal, then $I^k$ is not even first countable. If $kgtmathfrak c$ then $I^k$ is not separable.
            – bof
            Nov 15 at 6:04













          up vote
          2
          down vote










          up vote
          2
          down vote









          I think the following qualifies as a counterexample . . .



          Let $k$ be a cardinal number with $k > c$, where $c=|mathbb{R}|$.



          Let $I=[0,1]$ with the usual topology, and let $X$ be the product of $k$ copies of $I$.



          Then





          • $X$ is compact and Hausdorff.$\[4pt]$


          • $X$ is locally compact.$\[4pt]$


          • $X$ is covered by itself, so $X$ qualifies as being covered by a countable union of compact sets.$\[4pt]$

          • The cardinality of the topology on $X$ is greater than $c$ (since $k > c$).$\[4pt]$


          But $X$ is not second countable.



          Suppose instead that $X$ had a countable base, $B$ say.



          Then since every open subset of $X$ is the union of some subset of $B$, it would follow that the cardinality of the topology on $X$ is at most the cardinality of the power set of $B$, hence at most $c$, contradiction.






          share|cite|improve this answer












          I think the following qualifies as a counterexample . . .



          Let $k$ be a cardinal number with $k > c$, where $c=|mathbb{R}|$.



          Let $I=[0,1]$ with the usual topology, and let $X$ be the product of $k$ copies of $I$.



          Then





          • $X$ is compact and Hausdorff.$\[4pt]$


          • $X$ is locally compact.$\[4pt]$


          • $X$ is covered by itself, so $X$ qualifies as being covered by a countable union of compact sets.$\[4pt]$

          • The cardinality of the topology on $X$ is greater than $c$ (since $k > c$).$\[4pt]$


          But $X$ is not second countable.



          Suppose instead that $X$ had a countable base, $B$ say.



          Then since every open subset of $X$ is the union of some subset of $B$, it would follow that the cardinality of the topology on $X$ is at most the cardinality of the power set of $B$, hence at most $c$, contradiction.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Nov 15 at 5:38









          quasi

          35.9k22562




          35.9k22562








          • 1




            Right. And $kgtmathfrak c$ is more than you need: if $k$ is an uncountable cardinal, then $I^k$ is not even first countable. If $kgtmathfrak c$ then $I^k$ is not separable.
            – bof
            Nov 15 at 6:04














          • 1




            Right. And $kgtmathfrak c$ is more than you need: if $k$ is an uncountable cardinal, then $I^k$ is not even first countable. If $kgtmathfrak c$ then $I^k$ is not separable.
            – bof
            Nov 15 at 6:04








          1




          1




          Right. And $kgtmathfrak c$ is more than you need: if $k$ is an uncountable cardinal, then $I^k$ is not even first countable. If $kgtmathfrak c$ then $I^k$ is not separable.
          – bof
          Nov 15 at 6:04




          Right. And $kgtmathfrak c$ is more than you need: if $k$ is an uncountable cardinal, then $I^k$ is not even first countable. If $kgtmathfrak c$ then $I^k$ is not separable.
          – bof
          Nov 15 at 6:04


















           

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