Trying to Solve Math Problem for Real World Use - Combinatorics











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I'm trying to solve a math problem that hasn't been solved - to anyone's knowledge - in the community it's being used in. I am sure it is not difficult, but I am not smart enough to figure it out.



In England, when on a country shoot (part of Britain's heritage) there are 8 "pegs" (shooting position in a straight line numbered 1-8) and shoot four "drives" (45 minute period of shooting). People draw pegs blind and then there are several ways that people change pegs across the 4 drives. Move two up: 1 goes to 3 goes to 5 goes to 7. Move up three: 1 goes to 4 goes to 7 goes to 2. Odds up 3, evens down 3, etc. 4 and 5 are considered the best "pegs" and 1 and 8 are considered the worst.



The questions is this: How would you solve this problem trying to solve for two different parameters: 1) Everyone get an equal distribution of being at 4/5 and 1/8 or at least close to them such that no one is advantaged over the course of the four "drives" and everyone is equally in the center or on the ends. 2) People get to stand next to different people across the course of the day and not always next to the same people (the reason odds up and evens down was invented).



No one particularly likes the current numbering system and many are looking for an alternative where you draw a number sequence as opposed to a number. (IE, you draw a card that has the "peg" order pre-determined for the 8 people - eg 3,1,5,7)



Thanks for your help! :)



Rand



PS Someone tried to solve this problem previously and could only make it work with 9 "pegs" and not 8. See link - https://www.gunsonpegs.com/articles/shooting-talk/alternatives-to-moving-up-2-the-durnford-wheel










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    up vote
    6
    down vote

    favorite
    2












    I'm trying to solve a math problem that hasn't been solved - to anyone's knowledge - in the community it's being used in. I am sure it is not difficult, but I am not smart enough to figure it out.



    In England, when on a country shoot (part of Britain's heritage) there are 8 "pegs" (shooting position in a straight line numbered 1-8) and shoot four "drives" (45 minute period of shooting). People draw pegs blind and then there are several ways that people change pegs across the 4 drives. Move two up: 1 goes to 3 goes to 5 goes to 7. Move up three: 1 goes to 4 goes to 7 goes to 2. Odds up 3, evens down 3, etc. 4 and 5 are considered the best "pegs" and 1 and 8 are considered the worst.



    The questions is this: How would you solve this problem trying to solve for two different parameters: 1) Everyone get an equal distribution of being at 4/5 and 1/8 or at least close to them such that no one is advantaged over the course of the four "drives" and everyone is equally in the center or on the ends. 2) People get to stand next to different people across the course of the day and not always next to the same people (the reason odds up and evens down was invented).



    No one particularly likes the current numbering system and many are looking for an alternative where you draw a number sequence as opposed to a number. (IE, you draw a card that has the "peg" order pre-determined for the 8 people - eg 3,1,5,7)



    Thanks for your help! :)



    Rand



    PS Someone tried to solve this problem previously and could only make it work with 9 "pegs" and not 8. See link - https://www.gunsonpegs.com/articles/shooting-talk/alternatives-to-moving-up-2-the-durnford-wheel










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      up vote
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      favorite
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      up vote
      6
      down vote

      favorite
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      2





      I'm trying to solve a math problem that hasn't been solved - to anyone's knowledge - in the community it's being used in. I am sure it is not difficult, but I am not smart enough to figure it out.



      In England, when on a country shoot (part of Britain's heritage) there are 8 "pegs" (shooting position in a straight line numbered 1-8) and shoot four "drives" (45 minute period of shooting). People draw pegs blind and then there are several ways that people change pegs across the 4 drives. Move two up: 1 goes to 3 goes to 5 goes to 7. Move up three: 1 goes to 4 goes to 7 goes to 2. Odds up 3, evens down 3, etc. 4 and 5 are considered the best "pegs" and 1 and 8 are considered the worst.



      The questions is this: How would you solve this problem trying to solve for two different parameters: 1) Everyone get an equal distribution of being at 4/5 and 1/8 or at least close to them such that no one is advantaged over the course of the four "drives" and everyone is equally in the center or on the ends. 2) People get to stand next to different people across the course of the day and not always next to the same people (the reason odds up and evens down was invented).



      No one particularly likes the current numbering system and many are looking for an alternative where you draw a number sequence as opposed to a number. (IE, you draw a card that has the "peg" order pre-determined for the 8 people - eg 3,1,5,7)



      Thanks for your help! :)



      Rand



      PS Someone tried to solve this problem previously and could only make it work with 9 "pegs" and not 8. See link - https://www.gunsonpegs.com/articles/shooting-talk/alternatives-to-moving-up-2-the-durnford-wheel










      share|cite|improve this question









      New contributor




      Rand is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      I'm trying to solve a math problem that hasn't been solved - to anyone's knowledge - in the community it's being used in. I am sure it is not difficult, but I am not smart enough to figure it out.



      In England, when on a country shoot (part of Britain's heritage) there are 8 "pegs" (shooting position in a straight line numbered 1-8) and shoot four "drives" (45 minute period of shooting). People draw pegs blind and then there are several ways that people change pegs across the 4 drives. Move two up: 1 goes to 3 goes to 5 goes to 7. Move up three: 1 goes to 4 goes to 7 goes to 2. Odds up 3, evens down 3, etc. 4 and 5 are considered the best "pegs" and 1 and 8 are considered the worst.



      The questions is this: How would you solve this problem trying to solve for two different parameters: 1) Everyone get an equal distribution of being at 4/5 and 1/8 or at least close to them such that no one is advantaged over the course of the four "drives" and everyone is equally in the center or on the ends. 2) People get to stand next to different people across the course of the day and not always next to the same people (the reason odds up and evens down was invented).



      No one particularly likes the current numbering system and many are looking for an alternative where you draw a number sequence as opposed to a number. (IE, you draw a card that has the "peg" order pre-determined for the 8 people - eg 3,1,5,7)



      Thanks for your help! :)



      Rand



      PS Someone tried to solve this problem previously and could only make it work with 9 "pegs" and not 8. See link - https://www.gunsonpegs.com/articles/shooting-talk/alternatives-to-moving-up-2-the-durnford-wheel







      combinatorics combinatorial-designs






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      edited 10 hours ago









      Acccumulation

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      asked 16 hours ago









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          2 Answers
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          active

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          up vote
          8
          down vote













          If you want a wheel-like system, by my (corrected) calculation there are 4 possibilities (8 with reversals).





          • $1 to 2 to 4 to 6 to 8 to 7 to 5 to 3 to 1$ (almost evens-up odds-down)

          • $1 to 2 to 5 to 3 to 8 to 7 to 4 to 6 to 1$


          • $1 to 3 to 5 to 7 to 8 to 6 to 4 to 2 to 1$ (almost odds-up evens-down)

          • $1 to 3 to 4 to 2 to 8 to 6 to 5 to 7 to 1$

          • $1 to 7 to 4 to 3 to 8 to 2 to 5 to 6 to 1$

          • $1 to 7 to 5 to 6 to 8 to 2 to 4 to 3 to 1$

          • $1 to 6 to 5 to 2 to 8 to 3 to 4 to 7 to 1$

          • $1 to 6 to 4 to 7 to 8 to 3 to 5 to 2 to 1$


          The first or third seem like they might be easiest to sell from a cultural standpoint.






          share|cite|improve this answer



















          • 2




            This is really elegant, and easy to remember. Evens move two up and odds two down, except that those on the ends move one place toward the middle. I wish I could understand CJam.
            – saulspatz
            14 hours ago






          • 1




            @saulspatz, thanks for the observation, which I have included in an edit I was working on.
            – Peter Taylor
            14 hours ago










          • You can imagine numbers 1 and 3 as having people going round a conveyor belt, with the evens on the “upper” side and the odds on the “lower” side. E.g. for number 3, this is a conveyor belt like /_⁻⁻_⁻⁻_⁻⁻/, going clockwise.
            – Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
            14 hours ago




















          up vote
          5
          down vote













          How about this schedule? Everyone gets one drive on the end and one in the middle, and also one drive which is one from the middle and one which is one from the end. No two people stand together twice.



          Letters are people, rows are drives, columns are pegs.



          A B H C G D F E
          B C A D H E G F
          C D B E A F H G
          D E C F B G A H





          share|cite|improve this answer

















          • 1




            This happens to be the third of Peter Taylor's eight possibilities (i.e. his "almost odds-up evens-down").
            – r.e.s.
            13 hours ago












          • It is implicit, but not only do no two people stand together twice, but also each pair of people are next to each other once
            – Henry
            8 hours ago











          Your Answer





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          2 Answers
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          active

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          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes








          up vote
          8
          down vote













          If you want a wheel-like system, by my (corrected) calculation there are 4 possibilities (8 with reversals).





          • $1 to 2 to 4 to 6 to 8 to 7 to 5 to 3 to 1$ (almost evens-up odds-down)

          • $1 to 2 to 5 to 3 to 8 to 7 to 4 to 6 to 1$


          • $1 to 3 to 5 to 7 to 8 to 6 to 4 to 2 to 1$ (almost odds-up evens-down)

          • $1 to 3 to 4 to 2 to 8 to 6 to 5 to 7 to 1$

          • $1 to 7 to 4 to 3 to 8 to 2 to 5 to 6 to 1$

          • $1 to 7 to 5 to 6 to 8 to 2 to 4 to 3 to 1$

          • $1 to 6 to 5 to 2 to 8 to 3 to 4 to 7 to 1$

          • $1 to 6 to 4 to 7 to 8 to 3 to 5 to 2 to 1$


          The first or third seem like they might be easiest to sell from a cultural standpoint.






          share|cite|improve this answer



















          • 2




            This is really elegant, and easy to remember. Evens move two up and odds two down, except that those on the ends move one place toward the middle. I wish I could understand CJam.
            – saulspatz
            14 hours ago






          • 1




            @saulspatz, thanks for the observation, which I have included in an edit I was working on.
            – Peter Taylor
            14 hours ago










          • You can imagine numbers 1 and 3 as having people going round a conveyor belt, with the evens on the “upper” side and the odds on the “lower” side. E.g. for number 3, this is a conveyor belt like /_⁻⁻_⁻⁻_⁻⁻/, going clockwise.
            – Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
            14 hours ago

















          up vote
          8
          down vote













          If you want a wheel-like system, by my (corrected) calculation there are 4 possibilities (8 with reversals).





          • $1 to 2 to 4 to 6 to 8 to 7 to 5 to 3 to 1$ (almost evens-up odds-down)

          • $1 to 2 to 5 to 3 to 8 to 7 to 4 to 6 to 1$


          • $1 to 3 to 5 to 7 to 8 to 6 to 4 to 2 to 1$ (almost odds-up evens-down)

          • $1 to 3 to 4 to 2 to 8 to 6 to 5 to 7 to 1$

          • $1 to 7 to 4 to 3 to 8 to 2 to 5 to 6 to 1$

          • $1 to 7 to 5 to 6 to 8 to 2 to 4 to 3 to 1$

          • $1 to 6 to 5 to 2 to 8 to 3 to 4 to 7 to 1$

          • $1 to 6 to 4 to 7 to 8 to 3 to 5 to 2 to 1$


          The first or third seem like they might be easiest to sell from a cultural standpoint.






          share|cite|improve this answer



















          • 2




            This is really elegant, and easy to remember. Evens move two up and odds two down, except that those on the ends move one place toward the middle. I wish I could understand CJam.
            – saulspatz
            14 hours ago






          • 1




            @saulspatz, thanks for the observation, which I have included in an edit I was working on.
            – Peter Taylor
            14 hours ago










          • You can imagine numbers 1 and 3 as having people going round a conveyor belt, with the evens on the “upper” side and the odds on the “lower” side. E.g. for number 3, this is a conveyor belt like /_⁻⁻_⁻⁻_⁻⁻/, going clockwise.
            – Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
            14 hours ago















          up vote
          8
          down vote










          up vote
          8
          down vote









          If you want a wheel-like system, by my (corrected) calculation there are 4 possibilities (8 with reversals).





          • $1 to 2 to 4 to 6 to 8 to 7 to 5 to 3 to 1$ (almost evens-up odds-down)

          • $1 to 2 to 5 to 3 to 8 to 7 to 4 to 6 to 1$


          • $1 to 3 to 5 to 7 to 8 to 6 to 4 to 2 to 1$ (almost odds-up evens-down)

          • $1 to 3 to 4 to 2 to 8 to 6 to 5 to 7 to 1$

          • $1 to 7 to 4 to 3 to 8 to 2 to 5 to 6 to 1$

          • $1 to 7 to 5 to 6 to 8 to 2 to 4 to 3 to 1$

          • $1 to 6 to 5 to 2 to 8 to 3 to 4 to 7 to 1$

          • $1 to 6 to 4 to 7 to 8 to 3 to 5 to 2 to 1$


          The first or third seem like they might be easiest to sell from a cultural standpoint.






          share|cite|improve this answer














          If you want a wheel-like system, by my (corrected) calculation there are 4 possibilities (8 with reversals).





          • $1 to 2 to 4 to 6 to 8 to 7 to 5 to 3 to 1$ (almost evens-up odds-down)

          • $1 to 2 to 5 to 3 to 8 to 7 to 4 to 6 to 1$


          • $1 to 3 to 5 to 7 to 8 to 6 to 4 to 2 to 1$ (almost odds-up evens-down)

          • $1 to 3 to 4 to 2 to 8 to 6 to 5 to 7 to 1$

          • $1 to 7 to 4 to 3 to 8 to 2 to 5 to 6 to 1$

          • $1 to 7 to 5 to 6 to 8 to 2 to 4 to 3 to 1$

          • $1 to 6 to 5 to 2 to 8 to 3 to 4 to 7 to 1$

          • $1 to 6 to 4 to 7 to 8 to 3 to 5 to 2 to 1$


          The first or third seem like they might be easiest to sell from a cultural standpoint.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited 14 hours ago

























          answered 15 hours ago









          Peter Taylor

          8,59712240




          8,59712240








          • 2




            This is really elegant, and easy to remember. Evens move two up and odds two down, except that those on the ends move one place toward the middle. I wish I could understand CJam.
            – saulspatz
            14 hours ago






          • 1




            @saulspatz, thanks for the observation, which I have included in an edit I was working on.
            – Peter Taylor
            14 hours ago










          • You can imagine numbers 1 and 3 as having people going round a conveyor belt, with the evens on the “upper” side and the odds on the “lower” side. E.g. for number 3, this is a conveyor belt like /_⁻⁻_⁻⁻_⁻⁻/, going clockwise.
            – Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
            14 hours ago
















          • 2




            This is really elegant, and easy to remember. Evens move two up and odds two down, except that those on the ends move one place toward the middle. I wish I could understand CJam.
            – saulspatz
            14 hours ago






          • 1




            @saulspatz, thanks for the observation, which I have included in an edit I was working on.
            – Peter Taylor
            14 hours ago










          • You can imagine numbers 1 and 3 as having people going round a conveyor belt, with the evens on the “upper” side and the odds on the “lower” side. E.g. for number 3, this is a conveyor belt like /_⁻⁻_⁻⁻_⁻⁻/, going clockwise.
            – Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
            14 hours ago










          2




          2




          This is really elegant, and easy to remember. Evens move two up and odds two down, except that those on the ends move one place toward the middle. I wish I could understand CJam.
          – saulspatz
          14 hours ago




          This is really elegant, and easy to remember. Evens move two up and odds two down, except that those on the ends move one place toward the middle. I wish I could understand CJam.
          – saulspatz
          14 hours ago




          1




          1




          @saulspatz, thanks for the observation, which I have included in an edit I was working on.
          – Peter Taylor
          14 hours ago




          @saulspatz, thanks for the observation, which I have included in an edit I was working on.
          – Peter Taylor
          14 hours ago












          You can imagine numbers 1 and 3 as having people going round a conveyor belt, with the evens on the “upper” side and the odds on the “lower” side. E.g. for number 3, this is a conveyor belt like /_⁻⁻_⁻⁻_⁻⁻/, going clockwise.
          – Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
          14 hours ago






          You can imagine numbers 1 and 3 as having people going round a conveyor belt, with the evens on the “upper” side and the odds on the “lower” side. E.g. for number 3, this is a conveyor belt like /_⁻⁻_⁻⁻_⁻⁻/, going clockwise.
          – Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
          14 hours ago












          up vote
          5
          down vote













          How about this schedule? Everyone gets one drive on the end and one in the middle, and also one drive which is one from the middle and one which is one from the end. No two people stand together twice.



          Letters are people, rows are drives, columns are pegs.



          A B H C G D F E
          B C A D H E G F
          C D B E A F H G
          D E C F B G A H





          share|cite|improve this answer

















          • 1




            This happens to be the third of Peter Taylor's eight possibilities (i.e. his "almost odds-up evens-down").
            – r.e.s.
            13 hours ago












          • It is implicit, but not only do no two people stand together twice, but also each pair of people are next to each other once
            – Henry
            8 hours ago















          up vote
          5
          down vote













          How about this schedule? Everyone gets one drive on the end and one in the middle, and also one drive which is one from the middle and one which is one from the end. No two people stand together twice.



          Letters are people, rows are drives, columns are pegs.



          A B H C G D F E
          B C A D H E G F
          C D B E A F H G
          D E C F B G A H





          share|cite|improve this answer

















          • 1




            This happens to be the third of Peter Taylor's eight possibilities (i.e. his "almost odds-up evens-down").
            – r.e.s.
            13 hours ago












          • It is implicit, but not only do no two people stand together twice, but also each pair of people are next to each other once
            – Henry
            8 hours ago













          up vote
          5
          down vote










          up vote
          5
          down vote









          How about this schedule? Everyone gets one drive on the end and one in the middle, and also one drive which is one from the middle and one which is one from the end. No two people stand together twice.



          Letters are people, rows are drives, columns are pegs.



          A B H C G D F E
          B C A D H E G F
          C D B E A F H G
          D E C F B G A H





          share|cite|improve this answer












          How about this schedule? Everyone gets one drive on the end and one in the middle, and also one drive which is one from the middle and one which is one from the end. No two people stand together twice.



          Letters are people, rows are drives, columns are pegs.



          A B H C G D F E
          B C A D H E G F
          C D B E A F H G
          D E C F B G A H






          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 15 hours ago









          Mike Earnest

          19.8k11950




          19.8k11950








          • 1




            This happens to be the third of Peter Taylor's eight possibilities (i.e. his "almost odds-up evens-down").
            – r.e.s.
            13 hours ago












          • It is implicit, but not only do no two people stand together twice, but also each pair of people are next to each other once
            – Henry
            8 hours ago














          • 1




            This happens to be the third of Peter Taylor's eight possibilities (i.e. his "almost odds-up evens-down").
            – r.e.s.
            13 hours ago












          • It is implicit, but not only do no two people stand together twice, but also each pair of people are next to each other once
            – Henry
            8 hours ago








          1




          1




          This happens to be the third of Peter Taylor's eight possibilities (i.e. his "almost odds-up evens-down").
          – r.e.s.
          13 hours ago






          This happens to be the third of Peter Taylor's eight possibilities (i.e. his "almost odds-up evens-down").
          – r.e.s.
          13 hours ago














          It is implicit, but not only do no two people stand together twice, but also each pair of people are next to each other once
          – Henry
          8 hours ago




          It is implicit, but not only do no two people stand together twice, but also each pair of people are next to each other once
          – Henry
          8 hours ago










          Rand is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










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          Rand is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












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