How is this fixed point theorem related to the axiom of choice?












4














I'm hoping the answer to this is well-known.



Let $X$ be an ordered set (i.e. poset). An inflationary operator $f$ on $X$ is a function $f: X to X$, not necessarily order-preserving, such that $f(x) geq x$ for all $x in X$. I'm interested in the following result:




Theorem Let $X$ be an ordered set in which every chain has an upper bound. Then every inflationary operator on $X$ has a fixed point.




My questions:




Can this theorem be proved without the axiom of choice? Does it imply the axiom of choice? Or is it equivalent to some weak form of choice?




Here I use the words "without", "imply" and "equivalent" in the usual way, i.e. I'm taking as given that we're allowed to use other standard set-theoretic axioms, such as ETCS without choice or ZF.



Background



This fixed point theorem is "equivalent" to Zorn's lemma in the standard informal sense that either one can be easily deduced from the other. Indeed, the theorem follows from Zorn because a maximal element is a fixed point for any inflationary operator. Conversely, the theorem implies Zorn: define an inflationary operator $f$ by taking $f(x) = x$ whenever $x$ is maximal and choosing some $f(x) > x$ otherwise.



That's fine — but since both my proof of the theorem and my proof of Zorn from the theorem involve the axiom of choice, it doesn't help to answer my questions above.



The fixed point theorem is very close to some results that don't require choice. For instance, the Bourbaki-Witt fixed point theorem states that on an ordered set where every chain has a least upper bound, every inflationary operator has a fixed point. That can be proved without choice. You can even weaken the hypothesis to state that every chain has a specified upper bound (i.e. there exists a function assigning an upper bound to each chain), and you still don't need choice. But neither of these results is as strong as the theorem above, at least superficially.










share|cite|improve this question



























    4














    I'm hoping the answer to this is well-known.



    Let $X$ be an ordered set (i.e. poset). An inflationary operator $f$ on $X$ is a function $f: X to X$, not necessarily order-preserving, such that $f(x) geq x$ for all $x in X$. I'm interested in the following result:




    Theorem Let $X$ be an ordered set in which every chain has an upper bound. Then every inflationary operator on $X$ has a fixed point.




    My questions:




    Can this theorem be proved without the axiom of choice? Does it imply the axiom of choice? Or is it equivalent to some weak form of choice?




    Here I use the words "without", "imply" and "equivalent" in the usual way, i.e. I'm taking as given that we're allowed to use other standard set-theoretic axioms, such as ETCS without choice or ZF.



    Background



    This fixed point theorem is "equivalent" to Zorn's lemma in the standard informal sense that either one can be easily deduced from the other. Indeed, the theorem follows from Zorn because a maximal element is a fixed point for any inflationary operator. Conversely, the theorem implies Zorn: define an inflationary operator $f$ by taking $f(x) = x$ whenever $x$ is maximal and choosing some $f(x) > x$ otherwise.



    That's fine — but since both my proof of the theorem and my proof of Zorn from the theorem involve the axiom of choice, it doesn't help to answer my questions above.



    The fixed point theorem is very close to some results that don't require choice. For instance, the Bourbaki-Witt fixed point theorem states that on an ordered set where every chain has a least upper bound, every inflationary operator has a fixed point. That can be proved without choice. You can even weaken the hypothesis to state that every chain has a specified upper bound (i.e. there exists a function assigning an upper bound to each chain), and you still don't need choice. But neither of these results is as strong as the theorem above, at least superficially.










    share|cite|improve this question

























      4












      4








      4







      I'm hoping the answer to this is well-known.



      Let $X$ be an ordered set (i.e. poset). An inflationary operator $f$ on $X$ is a function $f: X to X$, not necessarily order-preserving, such that $f(x) geq x$ for all $x in X$. I'm interested in the following result:




      Theorem Let $X$ be an ordered set in which every chain has an upper bound. Then every inflationary operator on $X$ has a fixed point.




      My questions:




      Can this theorem be proved without the axiom of choice? Does it imply the axiom of choice? Or is it equivalent to some weak form of choice?




      Here I use the words "without", "imply" and "equivalent" in the usual way, i.e. I'm taking as given that we're allowed to use other standard set-theoretic axioms, such as ETCS without choice or ZF.



      Background



      This fixed point theorem is "equivalent" to Zorn's lemma in the standard informal sense that either one can be easily deduced from the other. Indeed, the theorem follows from Zorn because a maximal element is a fixed point for any inflationary operator. Conversely, the theorem implies Zorn: define an inflationary operator $f$ by taking $f(x) = x$ whenever $x$ is maximal and choosing some $f(x) > x$ otherwise.



      That's fine — but since both my proof of the theorem and my proof of Zorn from the theorem involve the axiom of choice, it doesn't help to answer my questions above.



      The fixed point theorem is very close to some results that don't require choice. For instance, the Bourbaki-Witt fixed point theorem states that on an ordered set where every chain has a least upper bound, every inflationary operator has a fixed point. That can be proved without choice. You can even weaken the hypothesis to state that every chain has a specified upper bound (i.e. there exists a function assigning an upper bound to each chain), and you still don't need choice. But neither of these results is as strong as the theorem above, at least superficially.










      share|cite|improve this question













      I'm hoping the answer to this is well-known.



      Let $X$ be an ordered set (i.e. poset). An inflationary operator $f$ on $X$ is a function $f: X to X$, not necessarily order-preserving, such that $f(x) geq x$ for all $x in X$. I'm interested in the following result:




      Theorem Let $X$ be an ordered set in which every chain has an upper bound. Then every inflationary operator on $X$ has a fixed point.




      My questions:




      Can this theorem be proved without the axiom of choice? Does it imply the axiom of choice? Or is it equivalent to some weak form of choice?




      Here I use the words "without", "imply" and "equivalent" in the usual way, i.e. I'm taking as given that we're allowed to use other standard set-theoretic axioms, such as ETCS without choice or ZF.



      Background



      This fixed point theorem is "equivalent" to Zorn's lemma in the standard informal sense that either one can be easily deduced from the other. Indeed, the theorem follows from Zorn because a maximal element is a fixed point for any inflationary operator. Conversely, the theorem implies Zorn: define an inflationary operator $f$ by taking $f(x) = x$ whenever $x$ is maximal and choosing some $f(x) > x$ otherwise.



      That's fine — but since both my proof of the theorem and my proof of Zorn from the theorem involve the axiom of choice, it doesn't help to answer my questions above.



      The fixed point theorem is very close to some results that don't require choice. For instance, the Bourbaki-Witt fixed point theorem states that on an ordered set where every chain has a least upper bound, every inflationary operator has a fixed point. That can be proved without choice. You can even weaken the hypothesis to state that every chain has a specified upper bound (i.e. there exists a function assigning an upper bound to each chain), and you still don't need choice. But neither of these results is as strong as the theorem above, at least superficially.







      set-theory lo.logic order-theory posets fixed-point-theorems






      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question











      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question










      asked 8 hours ago









      Tom Leinster

      19.1k475126




      19.1k475126






















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          5














          I'll deduce Zorn's Lemma from your fixed-point theorem. Suppose $P$ is a poset violating Zorn's Lemma; so all chains in $P$ have upper bounds, but there's no maximal element. Consider the poset $Q=Ptimesomega$ with the lexicographic ordering; that is, in $P$ replace every element by a chain ordered like the set $omega$ of natural numbers. I claim this $Q$ serves as a counterexample to your fixed-point theorem. The map $(p,n)mapsto(p,n+1)$ is inflationary and has no fixed point in $Q$. So it remains only to prove that, in $Q$, every chain has an upper bound.



          Consider any chain $C$ in $Q$. The first components $p$ of the elements $(p,n)in C$ constitute a chain $C'$ in $P$, and by assumption $C'$ has an upper bound $b$ in $P$. If $bnotin C'$, then $(b,0)$ serves as an upper bound for $C$ in $Q$. If, on the other hand, $bin C'$, then use the assumption that $P$ has no maximal element to get some $b'$ strictly above $b$ in $P$; then $(b',0)$ is an upper bound for $C$ in $Q$.






          share|cite|improve this answer























          • The case distinction as to whether $bin C'$ is unnecessary; the argument in the case $bnotin C'$ works in general. In fact, It seems that the argument can be easily reformulated to also avoid using contraposition. Think of my answer as a "stream of consciousness" approximation to a cleaner, constructive (or at least much more constructive) version.
            – Andreas Blass
            8 hours ago












          • Wonderful! Thank you. Just one thing: in your comment, I think you mean "the argument in the case $b in C'$ works in general".
            – Tom Leinster
            7 hours ago












          • @TomLeinster You're right. The argument that works in general is the one using some $b'>b$. (Unfortunately I can't edit the comment to correct it.)
            – Andreas Blass
            2 hours ago











          Your Answer





          StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
          return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
          StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
          StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
          });
          });
          }, "mathjax-editing");

          StackExchange.ready(function() {
          var channelOptions = {
          tags: "".split(" "),
          id: "504"
          };
          initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

          StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
          // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
          if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
          StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
          createEditor();
          });
          }
          else {
          createEditor();
          }
          });

          function createEditor() {
          StackExchange.prepareEditor({
          heartbeatType: 'answer',
          autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
          convertImagesToLinks: true,
          noModals: true,
          showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
          reputationToPostImages: 10,
          bindNavPrevention: true,
          postfix: "",
          imageUploader: {
          brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
          contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
          allowUrls: true
          },
          noCode: true, onDemand: true,
          discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
          ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
          });


          }
          });














          draft saved

          draft discarded


















          StackExchange.ready(
          function () {
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmathoverflow.net%2fquestions%2f319379%2fhow-is-this-fixed-point-theorem-related-to-the-axiom-of-choice%23new-answer', 'question_page');
          }
          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown

























          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes








          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          5














          I'll deduce Zorn's Lemma from your fixed-point theorem. Suppose $P$ is a poset violating Zorn's Lemma; so all chains in $P$ have upper bounds, but there's no maximal element. Consider the poset $Q=Ptimesomega$ with the lexicographic ordering; that is, in $P$ replace every element by a chain ordered like the set $omega$ of natural numbers. I claim this $Q$ serves as a counterexample to your fixed-point theorem. The map $(p,n)mapsto(p,n+1)$ is inflationary and has no fixed point in $Q$. So it remains only to prove that, in $Q$, every chain has an upper bound.



          Consider any chain $C$ in $Q$. The first components $p$ of the elements $(p,n)in C$ constitute a chain $C'$ in $P$, and by assumption $C'$ has an upper bound $b$ in $P$. If $bnotin C'$, then $(b,0)$ serves as an upper bound for $C$ in $Q$. If, on the other hand, $bin C'$, then use the assumption that $P$ has no maximal element to get some $b'$ strictly above $b$ in $P$; then $(b',0)$ is an upper bound for $C$ in $Q$.






          share|cite|improve this answer























          • The case distinction as to whether $bin C'$ is unnecessary; the argument in the case $bnotin C'$ works in general. In fact, It seems that the argument can be easily reformulated to also avoid using contraposition. Think of my answer as a "stream of consciousness" approximation to a cleaner, constructive (or at least much more constructive) version.
            – Andreas Blass
            8 hours ago












          • Wonderful! Thank you. Just one thing: in your comment, I think you mean "the argument in the case $b in C'$ works in general".
            – Tom Leinster
            7 hours ago












          • @TomLeinster You're right. The argument that works in general is the one using some $b'>b$. (Unfortunately I can't edit the comment to correct it.)
            – Andreas Blass
            2 hours ago
















          5














          I'll deduce Zorn's Lemma from your fixed-point theorem. Suppose $P$ is a poset violating Zorn's Lemma; so all chains in $P$ have upper bounds, but there's no maximal element. Consider the poset $Q=Ptimesomega$ with the lexicographic ordering; that is, in $P$ replace every element by a chain ordered like the set $omega$ of natural numbers. I claim this $Q$ serves as a counterexample to your fixed-point theorem. The map $(p,n)mapsto(p,n+1)$ is inflationary and has no fixed point in $Q$. So it remains only to prove that, in $Q$, every chain has an upper bound.



          Consider any chain $C$ in $Q$. The first components $p$ of the elements $(p,n)in C$ constitute a chain $C'$ in $P$, and by assumption $C'$ has an upper bound $b$ in $P$. If $bnotin C'$, then $(b,0)$ serves as an upper bound for $C$ in $Q$. If, on the other hand, $bin C'$, then use the assumption that $P$ has no maximal element to get some $b'$ strictly above $b$ in $P$; then $(b',0)$ is an upper bound for $C$ in $Q$.






          share|cite|improve this answer























          • The case distinction as to whether $bin C'$ is unnecessary; the argument in the case $bnotin C'$ works in general. In fact, It seems that the argument can be easily reformulated to also avoid using contraposition. Think of my answer as a "stream of consciousness" approximation to a cleaner, constructive (or at least much more constructive) version.
            – Andreas Blass
            8 hours ago












          • Wonderful! Thank you. Just one thing: in your comment, I think you mean "the argument in the case $b in C'$ works in general".
            – Tom Leinster
            7 hours ago












          • @TomLeinster You're right. The argument that works in general is the one using some $b'>b$. (Unfortunately I can't edit the comment to correct it.)
            – Andreas Blass
            2 hours ago














          5












          5








          5






          I'll deduce Zorn's Lemma from your fixed-point theorem. Suppose $P$ is a poset violating Zorn's Lemma; so all chains in $P$ have upper bounds, but there's no maximal element. Consider the poset $Q=Ptimesomega$ with the lexicographic ordering; that is, in $P$ replace every element by a chain ordered like the set $omega$ of natural numbers. I claim this $Q$ serves as a counterexample to your fixed-point theorem. The map $(p,n)mapsto(p,n+1)$ is inflationary and has no fixed point in $Q$. So it remains only to prove that, in $Q$, every chain has an upper bound.



          Consider any chain $C$ in $Q$. The first components $p$ of the elements $(p,n)in C$ constitute a chain $C'$ in $P$, and by assumption $C'$ has an upper bound $b$ in $P$. If $bnotin C'$, then $(b,0)$ serves as an upper bound for $C$ in $Q$. If, on the other hand, $bin C'$, then use the assumption that $P$ has no maximal element to get some $b'$ strictly above $b$ in $P$; then $(b',0)$ is an upper bound for $C$ in $Q$.






          share|cite|improve this answer














          I'll deduce Zorn's Lemma from your fixed-point theorem. Suppose $P$ is a poset violating Zorn's Lemma; so all chains in $P$ have upper bounds, but there's no maximal element. Consider the poset $Q=Ptimesomega$ with the lexicographic ordering; that is, in $P$ replace every element by a chain ordered like the set $omega$ of natural numbers. I claim this $Q$ serves as a counterexample to your fixed-point theorem. The map $(p,n)mapsto(p,n+1)$ is inflationary and has no fixed point in $Q$. So it remains only to prove that, in $Q$, every chain has an upper bound.



          Consider any chain $C$ in $Q$. The first components $p$ of the elements $(p,n)in C$ constitute a chain $C'$ in $P$, and by assumption $C'$ has an upper bound $b$ in $P$. If $bnotin C'$, then $(b,0)$ serves as an upper bound for $C$ in $Q$. If, on the other hand, $bin C'$, then use the assumption that $P$ has no maximal element to get some $b'$ strictly above $b$ in $P$; then $(b',0)$ is an upper bound for $C$ in $Q$.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited 8 hours ago

























          answered 8 hours ago









          Andreas Blass

          56.5k7134216




          56.5k7134216












          • The case distinction as to whether $bin C'$ is unnecessary; the argument in the case $bnotin C'$ works in general. In fact, It seems that the argument can be easily reformulated to also avoid using contraposition. Think of my answer as a "stream of consciousness" approximation to a cleaner, constructive (or at least much more constructive) version.
            – Andreas Blass
            8 hours ago












          • Wonderful! Thank you. Just one thing: in your comment, I think you mean "the argument in the case $b in C'$ works in general".
            – Tom Leinster
            7 hours ago












          • @TomLeinster You're right. The argument that works in general is the one using some $b'>b$. (Unfortunately I can't edit the comment to correct it.)
            – Andreas Blass
            2 hours ago


















          • The case distinction as to whether $bin C'$ is unnecessary; the argument in the case $bnotin C'$ works in general. In fact, It seems that the argument can be easily reformulated to also avoid using contraposition. Think of my answer as a "stream of consciousness" approximation to a cleaner, constructive (or at least much more constructive) version.
            – Andreas Blass
            8 hours ago












          • Wonderful! Thank you. Just one thing: in your comment, I think you mean "the argument in the case $b in C'$ works in general".
            – Tom Leinster
            7 hours ago












          • @TomLeinster You're right. The argument that works in general is the one using some $b'>b$. (Unfortunately I can't edit the comment to correct it.)
            – Andreas Blass
            2 hours ago
















          The case distinction as to whether $bin C'$ is unnecessary; the argument in the case $bnotin C'$ works in general. In fact, It seems that the argument can be easily reformulated to also avoid using contraposition. Think of my answer as a "stream of consciousness" approximation to a cleaner, constructive (or at least much more constructive) version.
          – Andreas Blass
          8 hours ago






          The case distinction as to whether $bin C'$ is unnecessary; the argument in the case $bnotin C'$ works in general. In fact, It seems that the argument can be easily reformulated to also avoid using contraposition. Think of my answer as a "stream of consciousness" approximation to a cleaner, constructive (or at least much more constructive) version.
          – Andreas Blass
          8 hours ago














          Wonderful! Thank you. Just one thing: in your comment, I think you mean "the argument in the case $b in C'$ works in general".
          – Tom Leinster
          7 hours ago






          Wonderful! Thank you. Just one thing: in your comment, I think you mean "the argument in the case $b in C'$ works in general".
          – Tom Leinster
          7 hours ago














          @TomLeinster You're right. The argument that works in general is the one using some $b'>b$. (Unfortunately I can't edit the comment to correct it.)
          – Andreas Blass
          2 hours ago




          @TomLeinster You're right. The argument that works in general is the one using some $b'>b$. (Unfortunately I can't edit the comment to correct it.)
          – Andreas Blass
          2 hours ago


















          draft saved

          draft discarded




















































          Thanks for contributing an answer to MathOverflow!


          • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

          But avoid



          • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

          • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


          Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


          To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





          Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


          Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


          • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

          But avoid



          • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

          • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


          To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




          draft saved


          draft discarded














          StackExchange.ready(
          function () {
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmathoverflow.net%2fquestions%2f319379%2fhow-is-this-fixed-point-theorem-related-to-the-axiom-of-choice%23new-answer', 'question_page');
          }
          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown





















































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown

































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown







          Popular posts from this blog

          Plaza Victoria

          In PowerPoint, is there a keyboard shortcut for bulleted / numbered list?

          How to put 3 figures in Latex with 2 figures side by side and 1 below these side by side images but in...