Are normal subgroups transitive?
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Suppose $G$ is a group and $Klhd Hlhd G$ are normal subgroups of $G$. Is $K$ a normal subgroup of $G$, i.e. $Klhd G$? If not, what extra conditions on $G$ or $H$ make this possible?
Applying the definitions, we know ${ghg^{-1}mid hin H}=H$ and ${hkh^{-1}mid kin K}=K$, and want ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$. Clearly, the best avenue for a counterexample is if $gkg^{-1}notin K$ for some $kin K$ and $gin G-H$.
If no such element exists, ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}subseteq K$ implies ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$ because if $k'in K$, $gk'g^{-1}=kin KRightarrow k'=g^{-1}kgin{gkg^{-1}mid kin K}$.
group-theory examples-counterexamples normal-subgroups
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show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Suppose $G$ is a group and $Klhd Hlhd G$ are normal subgroups of $G$. Is $K$ a normal subgroup of $G$, i.e. $Klhd G$? If not, what extra conditions on $G$ or $H$ make this possible?
Applying the definitions, we know ${ghg^{-1}mid hin H}=H$ and ${hkh^{-1}mid kin K}=K$, and want ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$. Clearly, the best avenue for a counterexample is if $gkg^{-1}notin K$ for some $kin K$ and $gin G-H$.
If no such element exists, ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}subseteq K$ implies ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$ because if $k'in K$, $gk'g^{-1}=kin KRightarrow k'=g^{-1}kgin{gkg^{-1}mid kin K}$.
group-theory examples-counterexamples normal-subgroups
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$K$ characteristic in $H$ and $H$ normal in $G$ then $K$ is normal in $G$
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– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 7:48
1
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Take a look at $D_8$, the dihedral group with 8 elements.
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– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 7:51
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@HansGiebenrath I'm not seeing a counterexample in $D_4$. It has $C_4={1,r,r^2,r^3}$ as a normal subgroup, but the only subgroup of $C_4$ is $C_2={1,r^2}$, which is normal in $D_4$.
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– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 8:02
5
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@PatrickDaSilva: They do, $langle r^2,srangle$ is normal in $D_8$ and contains $langle s rangle$, which is not normal in $D_8$.
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– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 9:08
1
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@Hans : I guess I am tired for saying false things. Sorry to have doubted you.
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– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:16
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Suppose $G$ is a group and $Klhd Hlhd G$ are normal subgroups of $G$. Is $K$ a normal subgroup of $G$, i.e. $Klhd G$? If not, what extra conditions on $G$ or $H$ make this possible?
Applying the definitions, we know ${ghg^{-1}mid hin H}=H$ and ${hkh^{-1}mid kin K}=K$, and want ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$. Clearly, the best avenue for a counterexample is if $gkg^{-1}notin K$ for some $kin K$ and $gin G-H$.
If no such element exists, ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}subseteq K$ implies ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$ because if $k'in K$, $gk'g^{-1}=kin KRightarrow k'=g^{-1}kgin{gkg^{-1}mid kin K}$.
group-theory examples-counterexamples normal-subgroups
$endgroup$
Suppose $G$ is a group and $Klhd Hlhd G$ are normal subgroups of $G$. Is $K$ a normal subgroup of $G$, i.e. $Klhd G$? If not, what extra conditions on $G$ or $H$ make this possible?
Applying the definitions, we know ${ghg^{-1}mid hin H}=H$ and ${hkh^{-1}mid kin K}=K$, and want ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$. Clearly, the best avenue for a counterexample is if $gkg^{-1}notin K$ for some $kin K$ and $gin G-H$.
If no such element exists, ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}subseteq K$ implies ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$ because if $k'in K$, $gk'g^{-1}=kin KRightarrow k'=g^{-1}kgin{gkg^{-1}mid kin K}$.
group-theory examples-counterexamples normal-subgroups
group-theory examples-counterexamples normal-subgroups
edited Dec 13 '18 at 15:48
Martin Sleziak
44.8k10119272
44.8k10119272
asked Dec 10 '12 at 7:44
Mario CarneiroMario Carneiro
18.6k34090
18.6k34090
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$K$ characteristic in $H$ and $H$ normal in $G$ then $K$ is normal in $G$
$endgroup$
– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 7:48
1
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Take a look at $D_8$, the dihedral group with 8 elements.
$endgroup$
– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 7:51
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@HansGiebenrath I'm not seeing a counterexample in $D_4$. It has $C_4={1,r,r^2,r^3}$ as a normal subgroup, but the only subgroup of $C_4$ is $C_2={1,r^2}$, which is normal in $D_4$.
$endgroup$
– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 8:02
5
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@PatrickDaSilva: They do, $langle r^2,srangle$ is normal in $D_8$ and contains $langle s rangle$, which is not normal in $D_8$.
$endgroup$
– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 9:08
1
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@Hans : I guess I am tired for saying false things. Sorry to have doubted you.
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:16
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
$K$ characteristic in $H$ and $H$ normal in $G$ then $K$ is normal in $G$
$endgroup$
– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 7:48
1
$begingroup$
Take a look at $D_8$, the dihedral group with 8 elements.
$endgroup$
– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 7:51
$begingroup$
@HansGiebenrath I'm not seeing a counterexample in $D_4$. It has $C_4={1,r,r^2,r^3}$ as a normal subgroup, but the only subgroup of $C_4$ is $C_2={1,r^2}$, which is normal in $D_4$.
$endgroup$
– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 8:02
5
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva: They do, $langle r^2,srangle$ is normal in $D_8$ and contains $langle s rangle$, which is not normal in $D_8$.
$endgroup$
– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 9:08
1
$begingroup$
@Hans : I guess I am tired for saying false things. Sorry to have doubted you.
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:16
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$K$ characteristic in $H$ and $H$ normal in $G$ then $K$ is normal in $G$
$endgroup$
– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 7:48
$begingroup$
$K$ characteristic in $H$ and $H$ normal in $G$ then $K$ is normal in $G$
$endgroup$
– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 7:48
1
1
$begingroup$
Take a look at $D_8$, the dihedral group with 8 elements.
$endgroup$
– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 7:51
$begingroup$
Take a look at $D_8$, the dihedral group with 8 elements.
$endgroup$
– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 7:51
$begingroup$
@HansGiebenrath I'm not seeing a counterexample in $D_4$. It has $C_4={1,r,r^2,r^3}$ as a normal subgroup, but the only subgroup of $C_4$ is $C_2={1,r^2}$, which is normal in $D_4$.
$endgroup$
– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 8:02
$begingroup$
@HansGiebenrath I'm not seeing a counterexample in $D_4$. It has $C_4={1,r,r^2,r^3}$ as a normal subgroup, but the only subgroup of $C_4$ is $C_2={1,r^2}$, which is normal in $D_4$.
$endgroup$
– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 8:02
5
5
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva: They do, $langle r^2,srangle$ is normal in $D_8$ and contains $langle s rangle$, which is not normal in $D_8$.
$endgroup$
– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 9:08
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva: They do, $langle r^2,srangle$ is normal in $D_8$ and contains $langle s rangle$, which is not normal in $D_8$.
$endgroup$
– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 9:08
1
1
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@Hans : I guess I am tired for saying false things. Sorry to have doubted you.
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:16
$begingroup$
@Hans : I guess I am tired for saying false things. Sorry to have doubted you.
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:16
|
show 1 more comment
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
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Using some suggestions from the other commenters:
The alternating group, $A_4$, has the set $H={I,(12)(34),(13)(24),(14)(23)}cong V_4$ as a subgroup. If $fin S_4supseteq A_4$ is a permutation, then $f^{-1}[(12)(34)]f$ has the effect of swapping $f(1)$ with $f(2)$ and $f(3)$ with $f(4)$. One of these is $1$, and depending on which it is paired with, the conjugated element may be any of $H-{I}$, since the other two are also swapped. Thus $Hlhd S_4$ is normal, so $Hlhd A_4$ as well. Similarly, $H$ has three nontrivial subgroups, and taking $K={I,(12)(34)}cong C_2$, this is normal because $V_4$ is abelian. But $Knotlhd A_4$, since $$[(123)][(12)(34)][(132)]=(13)(24)in H-K.$$
Moreover, this is a minimal counterexample, since $|A_4|=12=2cdot 2cdot 3$ is the next smallest number which factors into three integers, which is required for $Klhd Hlhd G$ but ${I}subset Ksubset Hsubset G$ so that $[G,:,H]>1$, $[H,:,K]>1$, $|K|>1$ and
$$|G|=[G,:,H]cdot[H,:,K]cdot|K|.$$
The smallest integer satisfying this requirement is 8, but the only non-abelian groups with $|G|=8$ are the dihedral group $D_4$ and the quaternion group $Q_8$, and neither of these have counterexamples. (Note that if $G$ is abelian, then all subgroups are normal.) Thus $A_4$ is a minimal counterexample. (Edit: Oops, $D_4$ has a counterexample, as mentioned in the comments: $langle sranglelhdlangle r^2,sranglelhd langle r,srangle=D_4$, but $langle sranglenotlhd D_4$.)
However, if $Hlhd G$ and $K$ is a characteristic subgroup of $H$, then $K$ is normal in $G$. This is because the group action $f$ defines an automorphism on $G$, $varphi(g)=f^{-1}gf$, and because $H$ is normal, $varphi(H)=H$ so that $varphi|_H$ is an automorphism on $H$. Thus $varphi(K)=K$ since $K$ is characteristic on $H$ and so ${f^{-1}kfmid kin K}=KRightarrow Klhd G$.
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Great! You understand the theory verywell. +1! And sorry for the false comments.
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– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:17
add a comment |
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Look at $S_4$ and its following subgroups $A = langle (12)(34) rangle$ and $B={(12)(34),(13)(42),(23)(41),e }$. Try to show that $A$ is normal in $B$ and $B$ is normal in $S_4$ but $A$ is not normal in $S_4$.
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Good eye! I like this example. How about you show it? The proof is not long. No calculations required. I challenge you (unless you were leaving the exercise to the OP).
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– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 7:59
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@PatrickDaSilva I've fleshed out this argument in an answer below, but this leads to an interesting line of investigation: What is the smallest counterexample? As you point out, $|G|geq 8$, but $D_8$ fails, and the quaternion group fails too since ${1,-1}lhd Q_8$ is the only subgroup of order 2.
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– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 9:09
1
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@PatrickDaSilva $A_4$ is normal in $S_4$ and the sylow 2 subgroup of of $A_4$ is a unique group of order 4 hence the group of $B$ given above will be normal in $S_4$ and the normality of $A$ in $B$ is becuase of the fact $[B:A]=2$
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– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 10:56
add a comment |
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We need a non-abelian group, since all subgroups of abelian groups are normal. One small candidate is $D_8$, the symmetries of a square, here in a little more detail about how we might go about finding examples:
Consider all the subgroups in $D_8$. It's useful to visualize the subgroups as a lattice:
(Picture of Dummit and Foote I found on the web)
Now we try to pick an $H$. For all the subgroups on the third row from the top, their only proper subgroup is the trivial subgroup, which is trivially normal to $G$, so it doesn't make sense to use any of the subgroups on the third row for $H$.
Our only options for $H$ now are the second row: $langle s, r^2 rangle$, $langle r rangle$, and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$. We observe that if $H = langle r rangle$, the proper subgroups $langle r^2 rangle$ and $1$ are both normal to $D_8$, so that case is excluded. Our candidates are $langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$.
Take $H = langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $K = langle s rangle$. It's easy to verify that $langle s rangle$ is not normal to $D_8$. All that's left is to show $K lhd H$ and $H lhd G$.
This is not difficult if we remember that any element in $D_8$ can be written as $r^i s^j$ with $0 le i le 3$ and $j = 0, 1$. Also we have the identity $rs = sr^{-1}$ which can repeated as $r^k s = s r^{-k}$. So for $g in D_8$, we want to prove or disprove $r^i s^j n s^j r^{-i} in N$ to show $N lhd G$.
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add a comment |
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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active
oldest
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$begingroup$
Using some suggestions from the other commenters:
The alternating group, $A_4$, has the set $H={I,(12)(34),(13)(24),(14)(23)}cong V_4$ as a subgroup. If $fin S_4supseteq A_4$ is a permutation, then $f^{-1}[(12)(34)]f$ has the effect of swapping $f(1)$ with $f(2)$ and $f(3)$ with $f(4)$. One of these is $1$, and depending on which it is paired with, the conjugated element may be any of $H-{I}$, since the other two are also swapped. Thus $Hlhd S_4$ is normal, so $Hlhd A_4$ as well. Similarly, $H$ has three nontrivial subgroups, and taking $K={I,(12)(34)}cong C_2$, this is normal because $V_4$ is abelian. But $Knotlhd A_4$, since $$[(123)][(12)(34)][(132)]=(13)(24)in H-K.$$
Moreover, this is a minimal counterexample, since $|A_4|=12=2cdot 2cdot 3$ is the next smallest number which factors into three integers, which is required for $Klhd Hlhd G$ but ${I}subset Ksubset Hsubset G$ so that $[G,:,H]>1$, $[H,:,K]>1$, $|K|>1$ and
$$|G|=[G,:,H]cdot[H,:,K]cdot|K|.$$
The smallest integer satisfying this requirement is 8, but the only non-abelian groups with $|G|=8$ are the dihedral group $D_4$ and the quaternion group $Q_8$, and neither of these have counterexamples. (Note that if $G$ is abelian, then all subgroups are normal.) Thus $A_4$ is a minimal counterexample. (Edit: Oops, $D_4$ has a counterexample, as mentioned in the comments: $langle sranglelhdlangle r^2,sranglelhd langle r,srangle=D_4$, but $langle sranglenotlhd D_4$.)
However, if $Hlhd G$ and $K$ is a characteristic subgroup of $H$, then $K$ is normal in $G$. This is because the group action $f$ defines an automorphism on $G$, $varphi(g)=f^{-1}gf$, and because $H$ is normal, $varphi(H)=H$ so that $varphi|_H$ is an automorphism on $H$. Thus $varphi(K)=K$ since $K$ is characteristic on $H$ and so ${f^{-1}kfmid kin K}=KRightarrow Klhd G$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Great! You understand the theory verywell. +1! And sorry for the false comments.
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:17
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Using some suggestions from the other commenters:
The alternating group, $A_4$, has the set $H={I,(12)(34),(13)(24),(14)(23)}cong V_4$ as a subgroup. If $fin S_4supseteq A_4$ is a permutation, then $f^{-1}[(12)(34)]f$ has the effect of swapping $f(1)$ with $f(2)$ and $f(3)$ with $f(4)$. One of these is $1$, and depending on which it is paired with, the conjugated element may be any of $H-{I}$, since the other two are also swapped. Thus $Hlhd S_4$ is normal, so $Hlhd A_4$ as well. Similarly, $H$ has three nontrivial subgroups, and taking $K={I,(12)(34)}cong C_2$, this is normal because $V_4$ is abelian. But $Knotlhd A_4$, since $$[(123)][(12)(34)][(132)]=(13)(24)in H-K.$$
Moreover, this is a minimal counterexample, since $|A_4|=12=2cdot 2cdot 3$ is the next smallest number which factors into three integers, which is required for $Klhd Hlhd G$ but ${I}subset Ksubset Hsubset G$ so that $[G,:,H]>1$, $[H,:,K]>1$, $|K|>1$ and
$$|G|=[G,:,H]cdot[H,:,K]cdot|K|.$$
The smallest integer satisfying this requirement is 8, but the only non-abelian groups with $|G|=8$ are the dihedral group $D_4$ and the quaternion group $Q_8$, and neither of these have counterexamples. (Note that if $G$ is abelian, then all subgroups are normal.) Thus $A_4$ is a minimal counterexample. (Edit: Oops, $D_4$ has a counterexample, as mentioned in the comments: $langle sranglelhdlangle r^2,sranglelhd langle r,srangle=D_4$, but $langle sranglenotlhd D_4$.)
However, if $Hlhd G$ and $K$ is a characteristic subgroup of $H$, then $K$ is normal in $G$. This is because the group action $f$ defines an automorphism on $G$, $varphi(g)=f^{-1}gf$, and because $H$ is normal, $varphi(H)=H$ so that $varphi|_H$ is an automorphism on $H$. Thus $varphi(K)=K$ since $K$ is characteristic on $H$ and so ${f^{-1}kfmid kin K}=KRightarrow Klhd G$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Great! You understand the theory verywell. +1! And sorry for the false comments.
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:17
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Using some suggestions from the other commenters:
The alternating group, $A_4$, has the set $H={I,(12)(34),(13)(24),(14)(23)}cong V_4$ as a subgroup. If $fin S_4supseteq A_4$ is a permutation, then $f^{-1}[(12)(34)]f$ has the effect of swapping $f(1)$ with $f(2)$ and $f(3)$ with $f(4)$. One of these is $1$, and depending on which it is paired with, the conjugated element may be any of $H-{I}$, since the other two are also swapped. Thus $Hlhd S_4$ is normal, so $Hlhd A_4$ as well. Similarly, $H$ has three nontrivial subgroups, and taking $K={I,(12)(34)}cong C_2$, this is normal because $V_4$ is abelian. But $Knotlhd A_4$, since $$[(123)][(12)(34)][(132)]=(13)(24)in H-K.$$
Moreover, this is a minimal counterexample, since $|A_4|=12=2cdot 2cdot 3$ is the next smallest number which factors into three integers, which is required for $Klhd Hlhd G$ but ${I}subset Ksubset Hsubset G$ so that $[G,:,H]>1$, $[H,:,K]>1$, $|K|>1$ and
$$|G|=[G,:,H]cdot[H,:,K]cdot|K|.$$
The smallest integer satisfying this requirement is 8, but the only non-abelian groups with $|G|=8$ are the dihedral group $D_4$ and the quaternion group $Q_8$, and neither of these have counterexamples. (Note that if $G$ is abelian, then all subgroups are normal.) Thus $A_4$ is a minimal counterexample. (Edit: Oops, $D_4$ has a counterexample, as mentioned in the comments: $langle sranglelhdlangle r^2,sranglelhd langle r,srangle=D_4$, but $langle sranglenotlhd D_4$.)
However, if $Hlhd G$ and $K$ is a characteristic subgroup of $H$, then $K$ is normal in $G$. This is because the group action $f$ defines an automorphism on $G$, $varphi(g)=f^{-1}gf$, and because $H$ is normal, $varphi(H)=H$ so that $varphi|_H$ is an automorphism on $H$. Thus $varphi(K)=K$ since $K$ is characteristic on $H$ and so ${f^{-1}kfmid kin K}=KRightarrow Klhd G$.
$endgroup$
Using some suggestions from the other commenters:
The alternating group, $A_4$, has the set $H={I,(12)(34),(13)(24),(14)(23)}cong V_4$ as a subgroup. If $fin S_4supseteq A_4$ is a permutation, then $f^{-1}[(12)(34)]f$ has the effect of swapping $f(1)$ with $f(2)$ and $f(3)$ with $f(4)$. One of these is $1$, and depending on which it is paired with, the conjugated element may be any of $H-{I}$, since the other two are also swapped. Thus $Hlhd S_4$ is normal, so $Hlhd A_4$ as well. Similarly, $H$ has three nontrivial subgroups, and taking $K={I,(12)(34)}cong C_2$, this is normal because $V_4$ is abelian. But $Knotlhd A_4$, since $$[(123)][(12)(34)][(132)]=(13)(24)in H-K.$$
Moreover, this is a minimal counterexample, since $|A_4|=12=2cdot 2cdot 3$ is the next smallest number which factors into three integers, which is required for $Klhd Hlhd G$ but ${I}subset Ksubset Hsubset G$ so that $[G,:,H]>1$, $[H,:,K]>1$, $|K|>1$ and
$$|G|=[G,:,H]cdot[H,:,K]cdot|K|.$$
The smallest integer satisfying this requirement is 8, but the only non-abelian groups with $|G|=8$ are the dihedral group $D_4$ and the quaternion group $Q_8$, and neither of these have counterexamples. (Note that if $G$ is abelian, then all subgroups are normal.) Thus $A_4$ is a minimal counterexample. (Edit: Oops, $D_4$ has a counterexample, as mentioned in the comments: $langle sranglelhdlangle r^2,sranglelhd langle r,srangle=D_4$, but $langle sranglenotlhd D_4$.)
However, if $Hlhd G$ and $K$ is a characteristic subgroup of $H$, then $K$ is normal in $G$. This is because the group action $f$ defines an automorphism on $G$, $varphi(g)=f^{-1}gf$, and because $H$ is normal, $varphi(H)=H$ so that $varphi|_H$ is an automorphism on $H$. Thus $varphi(K)=K$ since $K$ is characteristic on $H$ and so ${f^{-1}kfmid kin K}=KRightarrow Klhd G$.
edited Apr 13 '16 at 19:21
Michael Hardy
1
1
answered Dec 10 '12 at 8:54
Mario CarneiroMario Carneiro
18.6k34090
18.6k34090
$begingroup$
Great! You understand the theory verywell. +1! And sorry for the false comments.
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:17
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Great! You understand the theory verywell. +1! And sorry for the false comments.
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:17
$begingroup$
Great! You understand the theory verywell. +1! And sorry for the false comments.
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:17
$begingroup$
Great! You understand the theory verywell. +1! And sorry for the false comments.
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:17
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Look at $S_4$ and its following subgroups $A = langle (12)(34) rangle$ and $B={(12)(34),(13)(42),(23)(41),e }$. Try to show that $A$ is normal in $B$ and $B$ is normal in $S_4$ but $A$ is not normal in $S_4$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Good eye! I like this example. How about you show it? The proof is not long. No calculations required. I challenge you (unless you were leaving the exercise to the OP).
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 7:59
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva I've fleshed out this argument in an answer below, but this leads to an interesting line of investigation: What is the smallest counterexample? As you point out, $|G|geq 8$, but $D_8$ fails, and the quaternion group fails too since ${1,-1}lhd Q_8$ is the only subgroup of order 2.
$endgroup$
– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 9:09
1
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva $A_4$ is normal in $S_4$ and the sylow 2 subgroup of of $A_4$ is a unique group of order 4 hence the group of $B$ given above will be normal in $S_4$ and the normality of $A$ in $B$ is becuase of the fact $[B:A]=2$
$endgroup$
– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 10:56
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Look at $S_4$ and its following subgroups $A = langle (12)(34) rangle$ and $B={(12)(34),(13)(42),(23)(41),e }$. Try to show that $A$ is normal in $B$ and $B$ is normal in $S_4$ but $A$ is not normal in $S_4$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Good eye! I like this example. How about you show it? The proof is not long. No calculations required. I challenge you (unless you were leaving the exercise to the OP).
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 7:59
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva I've fleshed out this argument in an answer below, but this leads to an interesting line of investigation: What is the smallest counterexample? As you point out, $|G|geq 8$, but $D_8$ fails, and the quaternion group fails too since ${1,-1}lhd Q_8$ is the only subgroup of order 2.
$endgroup$
– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 9:09
1
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva $A_4$ is normal in $S_4$ and the sylow 2 subgroup of of $A_4$ is a unique group of order 4 hence the group of $B$ given above will be normal in $S_4$ and the normality of $A$ in $B$ is becuase of the fact $[B:A]=2$
$endgroup$
– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 10:56
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Look at $S_4$ and its following subgroups $A = langle (12)(34) rangle$ and $B={(12)(34),(13)(42),(23)(41),e }$. Try to show that $A$ is normal in $B$ and $B$ is normal in $S_4$ but $A$ is not normal in $S_4$.
$endgroup$
Look at $S_4$ and its following subgroups $A = langle (12)(34) rangle$ and $B={(12)(34),(13)(42),(23)(41),e }$. Try to show that $A$ is normal in $B$ and $B$ is normal in $S_4$ but $A$ is not normal in $S_4$.
edited Apr 18 '17 at 12:16
Error 404
3,88321336
3,88321336
answered Dec 10 '12 at 7:56
jimjim
2,776829
2,776829
$begingroup$
Good eye! I like this example. How about you show it? The proof is not long. No calculations required. I challenge you (unless you were leaving the exercise to the OP).
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 7:59
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva I've fleshed out this argument in an answer below, but this leads to an interesting line of investigation: What is the smallest counterexample? As you point out, $|G|geq 8$, but $D_8$ fails, and the quaternion group fails too since ${1,-1}lhd Q_8$ is the only subgroup of order 2.
$endgroup$
– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 9:09
1
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva $A_4$ is normal in $S_4$ and the sylow 2 subgroup of of $A_4$ is a unique group of order 4 hence the group of $B$ given above will be normal in $S_4$ and the normality of $A$ in $B$ is becuase of the fact $[B:A]=2$
$endgroup$
– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 10:56
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Good eye! I like this example. How about you show it? The proof is not long. No calculations required. I challenge you (unless you were leaving the exercise to the OP).
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 7:59
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva I've fleshed out this argument in an answer below, but this leads to an interesting line of investigation: What is the smallest counterexample? As you point out, $|G|geq 8$, but $D_8$ fails, and the quaternion group fails too since ${1,-1}lhd Q_8$ is the only subgroup of order 2.
$endgroup$
– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 9:09
1
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva $A_4$ is normal in $S_4$ and the sylow 2 subgroup of of $A_4$ is a unique group of order 4 hence the group of $B$ given above will be normal in $S_4$ and the normality of $A$ in $B$ is becuase of the fact $[B:A]=2$
$endgroup$
– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 10:56
$begingroup$
Good eye! I like this example. How about you show it? The proof is not long. No calculations required. I challenge you (unless you were leaving the exercise to the OP).
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 7:59
$begingroup$
Good eye! I like this example. How about you show it? The proof is not long. No calculations required. I challenge you (unless you were leaving the exercise to the OP).
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 7:59
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva I've fleshed out this argument in an answer below, but this leads to an interesting line of investigation: What is the smallest counterexample? As you point out, $|G|geq 8$, but $D_8$ fails, and the quaternion group fails too since ${1,-1}lhd Q_8$ is the only subgroup of order 2.
$endgroup$
– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 9:09
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva I've fleshed out this argument in an answer below, but this leads to an interesting line of investigation: What is the smallest counterexample? As you point out, $|G|geq 8$, but $D_8$ fails, and the quaternion group fails too since ${1,-1}lhd Q_8$ is the only subgroup of order 2.
$endgroup$
– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 9:09
1
1
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva $A_4$ is normal in $S_4$ and the sylow 2 subgroup of of $A_4$ is a unique group of order 4 hence the group of $B$ given above will be normal in $S_4$ and the normality of $A$ in $B$ is becuase of the fact $[B:A]=2$
$endgroup$
– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 10:56
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva $A_4$ is normal in $S_4$ and the sylow 2 subgroup of of $A_4$ is a unique group of order 4 hence the group of $B$ given above will be normal in $S_4$ and the normality of $A$ in $B$ is becuase of the fact $[B:A]=2$
$endgroup$
– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 10:56
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We need a non-abelian group, since all subgroups of abelian groups are normal. One small candidate is $D_8$, the symmetries of a square, here in a little more detail about how we might go about finding examples:
Consider all the subgroups in $D_8$. It's useful to visualize the subgroups as a lattice:
(Picture of Dummit and Foote I found on the web)
Now we try to pick an $H$. For all the subgroups on the third row from the top, their only proper subgroup is the trivial subgroup, which is trivially normal to $G$, so it doesn't make sense to use any of the subgroups on the third row for $H$.
Our only options for $H$ now are the second row: $langle s, r^2 rangle$, $langle r rangle$, and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$. We observe that if $H = langle r rangle$, the proper subgroups $langle r^2 rangle$ and $1$ are both normal to $D_8$, so that case is excluded. Our candidates are $langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$.
Take $H = langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $K = langle s rangle$. It's easy to verify that $langle s rangle$ is not normal to $D_8$. All that's left is to show $K lhd H$ and $H lhd G$.
This is not difficult if we remember that any element in $D_8$ can be written as $r^i s^j$ with $0 le i le 3$ and $j = 0, 1$. Also we have the identity $rs = sr^{-1}$ which can repeated as $r^k s = s r^{-k}$. So for $g in D_8$, we want to prove or disprove $r^i s^j n s^j r^{-i} in N$ to show $N lhd G$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We need a non-abelian group, since all subgroups of abelian groups are normal. One small candidate is $D_8$, the symmetries of a square, here in a little more detail about how we might go about finding examples:
Consider all the subgroups in $D_8$. It's useful to visualize the subgroups as a lattice:
(Picture of Dummit and Foote I found on the web)
Now we try to pick an $H$. For all the subgroups on the third row from the top, their only proper subgroup is the trivial subgroup, which is trivially normal to $G$, so it doesn't make sense to use any of the subgroups on the third row for $H$.
Our only options for $H$ now are the second row: $langle s, r^2 rangle$, $langle r rangle$, and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$. We observe that if $H = langle r rangle$, the proper subgroups $langle r^2 rangle$ and $1$ are both normal to $D_8$, so that case is excluded. Our candidates are $langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$.
Take $H = langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $K = langle s rangle$. It's easy to verify that $langle s rangle$ is not normal to $D_8$. All that's left is to show $K lhd H$ and $H lhd G$.
This is not difficult if we remember that any element in $D_8$ can be written as $r^i s^j$ with $0 le i le 3$ and $j = 0, 1$. Also we have the identity $rs = sr^{-1}$ which can repeated as $r^k s = s r^{-k}$. So for $g in D_8$, we want to prove or disprove $r^i s^j n s^j r^{-i} in N$ to show $N lhd G$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We need a non-abelian group, since all subgroups of abelian groups are normal. One small candidate is $D_8$, the symmetries of a square, here in a little more detail about how we might go about finding examples:
Consider all the subgroups in $D_8$. It's useful to visualize the subgroups as a lattice:
(Picture of Dummit and Foote I found on the web)
Now we try to pick an $H$. For all the subgroups on the third row from the top, their only proper subgroup is the trivial subgroup, which is trivially normal to $G$, so it doesn't make sense to use any of the subgroups on the third row for $H$.
Our only options for $H$ now are the second row: $langle s, r^2 rangle$, $langle r rangle$, and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$. We observe that if $H = langle r rangle$, the proper subgroups $langle r^2 rangle$ and $1$ are both normal to $D_8$, so that case is excluded. Our candidates are $langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$.
Take $H = langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $K = langle s rangle$. It's easy to verify that $langle s rangle$ is not normal to $D_8$. All that's left is to show $K lhd H$ and $H lhd G$.
This is not difficult if we remember that any element in $D_8$ can be written as $r^i s^j$ with $0 le i le 3$ and $j = 0, 1$. Also we have the identity $rs = sr^{-1}$ which can repeated as $r^k s = s r^{-k}$. So for $g in D_8$, we want to prove or disprove $r^i s^j n s^j r^{-i} in N$ to show $N lhd G$.
$endgroup$
We need a non-abelian group, since all subgroups of abelian groups are normal. One small candidate is $D_8$, the symmetries of a square, here in a little more detail about how we might go about finding examples:
Consider all the subgroups in $D_8$. It's useful to visualize the subgroups as a lattice:
(Picture of Dummit and Foote I found on the web)
Now we try to pick an $H$. For all the subgroups on the third row from the top, their only proper subgroup is the trivial subgroup, which is trivially normal to $G$, so it doesn't make sense to use any of the subgroups on the third row for $H$.
Our only options for $H$ now are the second row: $langle s, r^2 rangle$, $langle r rangle$, and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$. We observe that if $H = langle r rangle$, the proper subgroups $langle r^2 rangle$ and $1$ are both normal to $D_8$, so that case is excluded. Our candidates are $langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$.
Take $H = langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $K = langle s rangle$. It's easy to verify that $langle s rangle$ is not normal to $D_8$. All that's left is to show $K lhd H$ and $H lhd G$.
This is not difficult if we remember that any element in $D_8$ can be written as $r^i s^j$ with $0 le i le 3$ and $j = 0, 1$. Also we have the identity $rs = sr^{-1}$ which can repeated as $r^k s = s r^{-k}$. So for $g in D_8$, we want to prove or disprove $r^i s^j n s^j r^{-i} in N$ to show $N lhd G$.
answered Oct 9 '18 at 6:00
qwrqwr
6,69342755
6,69342755
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
$K$ characteristic in $H$ and $H$ normal in $G$ then $K$ is normal in $G$
$endgroup$
– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 7:48
1
$begingroup$
Take a look at $D_8$, the dihedral group with 8 elements.
$endgroup$
– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 7:51
$begingroup$
@HansGiebenrath I'm not seeing a counterexample in $D_4$. It has $C_4={1,r,r^2,r^3}$ as a normal subgroup, but the only subgroup of $C_4$ is $C_2={1,r^2}$, which is normal in $D_4$.
$endgroup$
– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 8:02
5
$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva: They do, $langle r^2,srangle$ is normal in $D_8$ and contains $langle s rangle$, which is not normal in $D_8$.
$endgroup$
– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 9:08
1
$begingroup$
@Hans : I guess I am tired for saying false things. Sorry to have doubted you.
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:16