Are normal subgroups transitive?












35












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Suppose $G$ is a group and $Klhd Hlhd G$ are normal subgroups of $G$. Is $K$ a normal subgroup of $G$, i.e. $Klhd G$? If not, what extra conditions on $G$ or $H$ make this possible?



Applying the definitions, we know ${ghg^{-1}mid hin H}=H$ and ${hkh^{-1}mid kin K}=K$, and want ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$. Clearly, the best avenue for a counterexample is if $gkg^{-1}notin K$ for some $kin K$ and $gin G-H$.



If no such element exists, ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}subseteq K$ implies ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$ because if $k'in K$, $gk'g^{-1}=kin KRightarrow k'=g^{-1}kgin{gkg^{-1}mid kin K}$.










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$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    $K$ characteristic in $H$ and $H$ normal in $G$ then $K$ is normal in $G$
    $endgroup$
    – jim
    Dec 10 '12 at 7:48








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Take a look at $D_8$, the dihedral group with 8 elements.
    $endgroup$
    – Hans Giebenrath
    Dec 10 '12 at 7:51










  • $begingroup$
    @HansGiebenrath I'm not seeing a counterexample in $D_4$. It has $C_4={1,r,r^2,r^3}$ as a normal subgroup, but the only subgroup of $C_4$ is $C_2={1,r^2}$, which is normal in $D_4$.
    $endgroup$
    – Mario Carneiro
    Dec 10 '12 at 8:02








  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @PatrickDaSilva: They do, $langle r^2,srangle$ is normal in $D_8$ and contains $langle s rangle$, which is not normal in $D_8$.
    $endgroup$
    – Hans Giebenrath
    Dec 10 '12 at 9:08








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Hans : I guess I am tired for saying false things. Sorry to have doubted you.
    $endgroup$
    – Patrick Da Silva
    Dec 10 '12 at 9:16
















35












$begingroup$


Suppose $G$ is a group and $Klhd Hlhd G$ are normal subgroups of $G$. Is $K$ a normal subgroup of $G$, i.e. $Klhd G$? If not, what extra conditions on $G$ or $H$ make this possible?



Applying the definitions, we know ${ghg^{-1}mid hin H}=H$ and ${hkh^{-1}mid kin K}=K$, and want ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$. Clearly, the best avenue for a counterexample is if $gkg^{-1}notin K$ for some $kin K$ and $gin G-H$.



If no such element exists, ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}subseteq K$ implies ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$ because if $k'in K$, $gk'g^{-1}=kin KRightarrow k'=g^{-1}kgin{gkg^{-1}mid kin K}$.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    $K$ characteristic in $H$ and $H$ normal in $G$ then $K$ is normal in $G$
    $endgroup$
    – jim
    Dec 10 '12 at 7:48








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Take a look at $D_8$, the dihedral group with 8 elements.
    $endgroup$
    – Hans Giebenrath
    Dec 10 '12 at 7:51










  • $begingroup$
    @HansGiebenrath I'm not seeing a counterexample in $D_4$. It has $C_4={1,r,r^2,r^3}$ as a normal subgroup, but the only subgroup of $C_4$ is $C_2={1,r^2}$, which is normal in $D_4$.
    $endgroup$
    – Mario Carneiro
    Dec 10 '12 at 8:02








  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @PatrickDaSilva: They do, $langle r^2,srangle$ is normal in $D_8$ and contains $langle s rangle$, which is not normal in $D_8$.
    $endgroup$
    – Hans Giebenrath
    Dec 10 '12 at 9:08








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Hans : I guess I am tired for saying false things. Sorry to have doubted you.
    $endgroup$
    – Patrick Da Silva
    Dec 10 '12 at 9:16














35












35








35


19



$begingroup$


Suppose $G$ is a group and $Klhd Hlhd G$ are normal subgroups of $G$. Is $K$ a normal subgroup of $G$, i.e. $Klhd G$? If not, what extra conditions on $G$ or $H$ make this possible?



Applying the definitions, we know ${ghg^{-1}mid hin H}=H$ and ${hkh^{-1}mid kin K}=K$, and want ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$. Clearly, the best avenue for a counterexample is if $gkg^{-1}notin K$ for some $kin K$ and $gin G-H$.



If no such element exists, ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}subseteq K$ implies ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$ because if $k'in K$, $gk'g^{-1}=kin KRightarrow k'=g^{-1}kgin{gkg^{-1}mid kin K}$.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Suppose $G$ is a group and $Klhd Hlhd G$ are normal subgroups of $G$. Is $K$ a normal subgroup of $G$, i.e. $Klhd G$? If not, what extra conditions on $G$ or $H$ make this possible?



Applying the definitions, we know ${ghg^{-1}mid hin H}=H$ and ${hkh^{-1}mid kin K}=K$, and want ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$. Clearly, the best avenue for a counterexample is if $gkg^{-1}notin K$ for some $kin K$ and $gin G-H$.



If no such element exists, ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}subseteq K$ implies ${gkg^{-1}mid kin K}=K$ because if $k'in K$, $gk'g^{-1}=kin KRightarrow k'=g^{-1}kgin{gkg^{-1}mid kin K}$.







group-theory examples-counterexamples normal-subgroups






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edited Dec 13 '18 at 15:48









Martin Sleziak

44.8k10119272




44.8k10119272










asked Dec 10 '12 at 7:44









Mario CarneiroMario Carneiro

18.6k34090




18.6k34090












  • $begingroup$
    $K$ characteristic in $H$ and $H$ normal in $G$ then $K$ is normal in $G$
    $endgroup$
    – jim
    Dec 10 '12 at 7:48








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Take a look at $D_8$, the dihedral group with 8 elements.
    $endgroup$
    – Hans Giebenrath
    Dec 10 '12 at 7:51










  • $begingroup$
    @HansGiebenrath I'm not seeing a counterexample in $D_4$. It has $C_4={1,r,r^2,r^3}$ as a normal subgroup, but the only subgroup of $C_4$ is $C_2={1,r^2}$, which is normal in $D_4$.
    $endgroup$
    – Mario Carneiro
    Dec 10 '12 at 8:02








  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @PatrickDaSilva: They do, $langle r^2,srangle$ is normal in $D_8$ and contains $langle s rangle$, which is not normal in $D_8$.
    $endgroup$
    – Hans Giebenrath
    Dec 10 '12 at 9:08








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Hans : I guess I am tired for saying false things. Sorry to have doubted you.
    $endgroup$
    – Patrick Da Silva
    Dec 10 '12 at 9:16


















  • $begingroup$
    $K$ characteristic in $H$ and $H$ normal in $G$ then $K$ is normal in $G$
    $endgroup$
    – jim
    Dec 10 '12 at 7:48








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Take a look at $D_8$, the dihedral group with 8 elements.
    $endgroup$
    – Hans Giebenrath
    Dec 10 '12 at 7:51










  • $begingroup$
    @HansGiebenrath I'm not seeing a counterexample in $D_4$. It has $C_4={1,r,r^2,r^3}$ as a normal subgroup, but the only subgroup of $C_4$ is $C_2={1,r^2}$, which is normal in $D_4$.
    $endgroup$
    – Mario Carneiro
    Dec 10 '12 at 8:02








  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @PatrickDaSilva: They do, $langle r^2,srangle$ is normal in $D_8$ and contains $langle s rangle$, which is not normal in $D_8$.
    $endgroup$
    – Hans Giebenrath
    Dec 10 '12 at 9:08








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Hans : I guess I am tired for saying false things. Sorry to have doubted you.
    $endgroup$
    – Patrick Da Silva
    Dec 10 '12 at 9:16
















$begingroup$
$K$ characteristic in $H$ and $H$ normal in $G$ then $K$ is normal in $G$
$endgroup$
– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 7:48






$begingroup$
$K$ characteristic in $H$ and $H$ normal in $G$ then $K$ is normal in $G$
$endgroup$
– jim
Dec 10 '12 at 7:48






1




1




$begingroup$
Take a look at $D_8$, the dihedral group with 8 elements.
$endgroup$
– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 7:51




$begingroup$
Take a look at $D_8$, the dihedral group with 8 elements.
$endgroup$
– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 7:51












$begingroup$
@HansGiebenrath I'm not seeing a counterexample in $D_4$. It has $C_4={1,r,r^2,r^3}$ as a normal subgroup, but the only subgroup of $C_4$ is $C_2={1,r^2}$, which is normal in $D_4$.
$endgroup$
– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 8:02






$begingroup$
@HansGiebenrath I'm not seeing a counterexample in $D_4$. It has $C_4={1,r,r^2,r^3}$ as a normal subgroup, but the only subgroup of $C_4$ is $C_2={1,r^2}$, which is normal in $D_4$.
$endgroup$
– Mario Carneiro
Dec 10 '12 at 8:02






5




5




$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva: They do, $langle r^2,srangle$ is normal in $D_8$ and contains $langle s rangle$, which is not normal in $D_8$.
$endgroup$
– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 9:08






$begingroup$
@PatrickDaSilva: They do, $langle r^2,srangle$ is normal in $D_8$ and contains $langle s rangle$, which is not normal in $D_8$.
$endgroup$
– Hans Giebenrath
Dec 10 '12 at 9:08






1




1




$begingroup$
@Hans : I guess I am tired for saying false things. Sorry to have doubted you.
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:16




$begingroup$
@Hans : I guess I am tired for saying false things. Sorry to have doubted you.
$endgroup$
– Patrick Da Silva
Dec 10 '12 at 9:16










3 Answers
3






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30












$begingroup$

Using some suggestions from the other commenters:



The alternating group, $A_4$, has the set $H={I,(12)(34),(13)(24),(14)(23)}cong V_4$ as a subgroup. If $fin S_4supseteq A_4$ is a permutation, then $f^{-1}[(12)(34)]f$ has the effect of swapping $f(1)$ with $f(2)$ and $f(3)$ with $f(4)$. One of these is $1$, and depending on which it is paired with, the conjugated element may be any of $H-{I}$, since the other two are also swapped. Thus $Hlhd S_4$ is normal, so $Hlhd A_4$ as well. Similarly, $H$ has three nontrivial subgroups, and taking $K={I,(12)(34)}cong C_2$, this is normal because $V_4$ is abelian. But $Knotlhd A_4$, since $$[(123)][(12)(34)][(132)]=(13)(24)in H-K.$$



Moreover, this is a minimal counterexample, since $|A_4|=12=2cdot 2cdot 3$ is the next smallest number which factors into three integers, which is required for $Klhd Hlhd G$ but ${I}subset Ksubset Hsubset G$ so that $[G,:,H]>1$, $[H,:,K]>1$, $|K|>1$ and
$$|G|=[G,:,H]cdot[H,:,K]cdot|K|.$$
The smallest integer satisfying this requirement is 8, but the only non-abelian groups with $|G|=8$ are the dihedral group $D_4$ and the quaternion group $Q_8$, and neither of these have counterexamples. (Note that if $G$ is abelian, then all subgroups are normal.) Thus $A_4$ is a minimal counterexample. (Edit: Oops, $D_4$ has a counterexample, as mentioned in the comments: $langle sranglelhdlangle r^2,sranglelhd langle r,srangle=D_4$, but $langle sranglenotlhd D_4$.)



However, if $Hlhd G$ and $K$ is a characteristic subgroup of $H$, then $K$ is normal in $G$. This is because the group action $f$ defines an automorphism on $G$, $varphi(g)=f^{-1}gf$, and because $H$ is normal, $varphi(H)=H$ so that $varphi|_H$ is an automorphism on $H$. Thus $varphi(K)=K$ since $K$ is characteristic on $H$ and so ${f^{-1}kfmid kin K}=KRightarrow Klhd G$.






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$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Great! You understand the theory verywell. +1! And sorry for the false comments.
    $endgroup$
    – Patrick Da Silva
    Dec 10 '12 at 9:17



















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Look at $S_4$ and its following subgroups $A = langle (12)(34) rangle$ and $B={(12)(34),(13)(42),(23)(41),e }$. Try to show that $A$ is normal in $B$ and $B$ is normal in $S_4$ but $A$ is not normal in $S_4$.






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$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Good eye! I like this example. How about you show it? The proof is not long. No calculations required. I challenge you (unless you were leaving the exercise to the OP).
    $endgroup$
    – Patrick Da Silva
    Dec 10 '12 at 7:59












  • $begingroup$
    @PatrickDaSilva I've fleshed out this argument in an answer below, but this leads to an interesting line of investigation: What is the smallest counterexample? As you point out, $|G|geq 8$, but $D_8$ fails, and the quaternion group fails too since ${1,-1}lhd Q_8$ is the only subgroup of order 2.
    $endgroup$
    – Mario Carneiro
    Dec 10 '12 at 9:09






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @PatrickDaSilva $A_4$ is normal in $S_4$ and the sylow 2 subgroup of of $A_4$ is a unique group of order 4 hence the group of $B$ given above will be normal in $S_4$ and the normality of $A$ in $B$ is becuase of the fact $[B:A]=2$
    $endgroup$
    – jim
    Dec 10 '12 at 10:56



















0












$begingroup$

We need a non-abelian group, since all subgroups of abelian groups are normal. One small candidate is $D_8$, the symmetries of a square, here in a little more detail about how we might go about finding examples:



Consider all the subgroups in $D_8$. It's useful to visualize the subgroups as a lattice:





(Picture of Dummit and Foote I found on the web)



Now we try to pick an $H$. For all the subgroups on the third row from the top, their only proper subgroup is the trivial subgroup, which is trivially normal to $G$, so it doesn't make sense to use any of the subgroups on the third row for $H$.



Our only options for $H$ now are the second row: $langle s, r^2 rangle$, $langle r rangle$, and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$. We observe that if $H = langle r rangle$, the proper subgroups $langle r^2 rangle$ and $1$ are both normal to $D_8$, so that case is excluded. Our candidates are $langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$.



Take $H = langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $K = langle s rangle$. It's easy to verify that $langle s rangle$ is not normal to $D_8$. All that's left is to show $K lhd H$ and $H lhd G$.



This is not difficult if we remember that any element in $D_8$ can be written as $r^i s^j$ with $0 le i le 3$ and $j = 0, 1$. Also we have the identity $rs = sr^{-1}$ which can repeated as $r^k s = s r^{-k}$. So for $g in D_8$, we want to prove or disprove $r^i s^j n s^j r^{-i} in N$ to show $N lhd G$.






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    3 Answers
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    30












    $begingroup$

    Using some suggestions from the other commenters:



    The alternating group, $A_4$, has the set $H={I,(12)(34),(13)(24),(14)(23)}cong V_4$ as a subgroup. If $fin S_4supseteq A_4$ is a permutation, then $f^{-1}[(12)(34)]f$ has the effect of swapping $f(1)$ with $f(2)$ and $f(3)$ with $f(4)$. One of these is $1$, and depending on which it is paired with, the conjugated element may be any of $H-{I}$, since the other two are also swapped. Thus $Hlhd S_4$ is normal, so $Hlhd A_4$ as well. Similarly, $H$ has three nontrivial subgroups, and taking $K={I,(12)(34)}cong C_2$, this is normal because $V_4$ is abelian. But $Knotlhd A_4$, since $$[(123)][(12)(34)][(132)]=(13)(24)in H-K.$$



    Moreover, this is a minimal counterexample, since $|A_4|=12=2cdot 2cdot 3$ is the next smallest number which factors into three integers, which is required for $Klhd Hlhd G$ but ${I}subset Ksubset Hsubset G$ so that $[G,:,H]>1$, $[H,:,K]>1$, $|K|>1$ and
    $$|G|=[G,:,H]cdot[H,:,K]cdot|K|.$$
    The smallest integer satisfying this requirement is 8, but the only non-abelian groups with $|G|=8$ are the dihedral group $D_4$ and the quaternion group $Q_8$, and neither of these have counterexamples. (Note that if $G$ is abelian, then all subgroups are normal.) Thus $A_4$ is a minimal counterexample. (Edit: Oops, $D_4$ has a counterexample, as mentioned in the comments: $langle sranglelhdlangle r^2,sranglelhd langle r,srangle=D_4$, but $langle sranglenotlhd D_4$.)



    However, if $Hlhd G$ and $K$ is a characteristic subgroup of $H$, then $K$ is normal in $G$. This is because the group action $f$ defines an automorphism on $G$, $varphi(g)=f^{-1}gf$, and because $H$ is normal, $varphi(H)=H$ so that $varphi|_H$ is an automorphism on $H$. Thus $varphi(K)=K$ since $K$ is characteristic on $H$ and so ${f^{-1}kfmid kin K}=KRightarrow Klhd G$.






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    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Great! You understand the theory verywell. +1! And sorry for the false comments.
      $endgroup$
      – Patrick Da Silva
      Dec 10 '12 at 9:17
















    30












    $begingroup$

    Using some suggestions from the other commenters:



    The alternating group, $A_4$, has the set $H={I,(12)(34),(13)(24),(14)(23)}cong V_4$ as a subgroup. If $fin S_4supseteq A_4$ is a permutation, then $f^{-1}[(12)(34)]f$ has the effect of swapping $f(1)$ with $f(2)$ and $f(3)$ with $f(4)$. One of these is $1$, and depending on which it is paired with, the conjugated element may be any of $H-{I}$, since the other two are also swapped. Thus $Hlhd S_4$ is normal, so $Hlhd A_4$ as well. Similarly, $H$ has three nontrivial subgroups, and taking $K={I,(12)(34)}cong C_2$, this is normal because $V_4$ is abelian. But $Knotlhd A_4$, since $$[(123)][(12)(34)][(132)]=(13)(24)in H-K.$$



    Moreover, this is a minimal counterexample, since $|A_4|=12=2cdot 2cdot 3$ is the next smallest number which factors into three integers, which is required for $Klhd Hlhd G$ but ${I}subset Ksubset Hsubset G$ so that $[G,:,H]>1$, $[H,:,K]>1$, $|K|>1$ and
    $$|G|=[G,:,H]cdot[H,:,K]cdot|K|.$$
    The smallest integer satisfying this requirement is 8, but the only non-abelian groups with $|G|=8$ are the dihedral group $D_4$ and the quaternion group $Q_8$, and neither of these have counterexamples. (Note that if $G$ is abelian, then all subgroups are normal.) Thus $A_4$ is a minimal counterexample. (Edit: Oops, $D_4$ has a counterexample, as mentioned in the comments: $langle sranglelhdlangle r^2,sranglelhd langle r,srangle=D_4$, but $langle sranglenotlhd D_4$.)



    However, if $Hlhd G$ and $K$ is a characteristic subgroup of $H$, then $K$ is normal in $G$. This is because the group action $f$ defines an automorphism on $G$, $varphi(g)=f^{-1}gf$, and because $H$ is normal, $varphi(H)=H$ so that $varphi|_H$ is an automorphism on $H$. Thus $varphi(K)=K$ since $K$ is characteristic on $H$ and so ${f^{-1}kfmid kin K}=KRightarrow Klhd G$.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Great! You understand the theory verywell. +1! And sorry for the false comments.
      $endgroup$
      – Patrick Da Silva
      Dec 10 '12 at 9:17














    30












    30








    30





    $begingroup$

    Using some suggestions from the other commenters:



    The alternating group, $A_4$, has the set $H={I,(12)(34),(13)(24),(14)(23)}cong V_4$ as a subgroup. If $fin S_4supseteq A_4$ is a permutation, then $f^{-1}[(12)(34)]f$ has the effect of swapping $f(1)$ with $f(2)$ and $f(3)$ with $f(4)$. One of these is $1$, and depending on which it is paired with, the conjugated element may be any of $H-{I}$, since the other two are also swapped. Thus $Hlhd S_4$ is normal, so $Hlhd A_4$ as well. Similarly, $H$ has three nontrivial subgroups, and taking $K={I,(12)(34)}cong C_2$, this is normal because $V_4$ is abelian. But $Knotlhd A_4$, since $$[(123)][(12)(34)][(132)]=(13)(24)in H-K.$$



    Moreover, this is a minimal counterexample, since $|A_4|=12=2cdot 2cdot 3$ is the next smallest number which factors into three integers, which is required for $Klhd Hlhd G$ but ${I}subset Ksubset Hsubset G$ so that $[G,:,H]>1$, $[H,:,K]>1$, $|K|>1$ and
    $$|G|=[G,:,H]cdot[H,:,K]cdot|K|.$$
    The smallest integer satisfying this requirement is 8, but the only non-abelian groups with $|G|=8$ are the dihedral group $D_4$ and the quaternion group $Q_8$, and neither of these have counterexamples. (Note that if $G$ is abelian, then all subgroups are normal.) Thus $A_4$ is a minimal counterexample. (Edit: Oops, $D_4$ has a counterexample, as mentioned in the comments: $langle sranglelhdlangle r^2,sranglelhd langle r,srangle=D_4$, but $langle sranglenotlhd D_4$.)



    However, if $Hlhd G$ and $K$ is a characteristic subgroup of $H$, then $K$ is normal in $G$. This is because the group action $f$ defines an automorphism on $G$, $varphi(g)=f^{-1}gf$, and because $H$ is normal, $varphi(H)=H$ so that $varphi|_H$ is an automorphism on $H$. Thus $varphi(K)=K$ since $K$ is characteristic on $H$ and so ${f^{-1}kfmid kin K}=KRightarrow Klhd G$.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    Using some suggestions from the other commenters:



    The alternating group, $A_4$, has the set $H={I,(12)(34),(13)(24),(14)(23)}cong V_4$ as a subgroup. If $fin S_4supseteq A_4$ is a permutation, then $f^{-1}[(12)(34)]f$ has the effect of swapping $f(1)$ with $f(2)$ and $f(3)$ with $f(4)$. One of these is $1$, and depending on which it is paired with, the conjugated element may be any of $H-{I}$, since the other two are also swapped. Thus $Hlhd S_4$ is normal, so $Hlhd A_4$ as well. Similarly, $H$ has three nontrivial subgroups, and taking $K={I,(12)(34)}cong C_2$, this is normal because $V_4$ is abelian. But $Knotlhd A_4$, since $$[(123)][(12)(34)][(132)]=(13)(24)in H-K.$$



    Moreover, this is a minimal counterexample, since $|A_4|=12=2cdot 2cdot 3$ is the next smallest number which factors into three integers, which is required for $Klhd Hlhd G$ but ${I}subset Ksubset Hsubset G$ so that $[G,:,H]>1$, $[H,:,K]>1$, $|K|>1$ and
    $$|G|=[G,:,H]cdot[H,:,K]cdot|K|.$$
    The smallest integer satisfying this requirement is 8, but the only non-abelian groups with $|G|=8$ are the dihedral group $D_4$ and the quaternion group $Q_8$, and neither of these have counterexamples. (Note that if $G$ is abelian, then all subgroups are normal.) Thus $A_4$ is a minimal counterexample. (Edit: Oops, $D_4$ has a counterexample, as mentioned in the comments: $langle sranglelhdlangle r^2,sranglelhd langle r,srangle=D_4$, but $langle sranglenotlhd D_4$.)



    However, if $Hlhd G$ and $K$ is a characteristic subgroup of $H$, then $K$ is normal in $G$. This is because the group action $f$ defines an automorphism on $G$, $varphi(g)=f^{-1}gf$, and because $H$ is normal, $varphi(H)=H$ so that $varphi|_H$ is an automorphism on $H$. Thus $varphi(K)=K$ since $K$ is characteristic on $H$ and so ${f^{-1}kfmid kin K}=KRightarrow Klhd G$.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Apr 13 '16 at 19:21









    Michael Hardy

    1




    1










    answered Dec 10 '12 at 8:54









    Mario CarneiroMario Carneiro

    18.6k34090




    18.6k34090












    • $begingroup$
      Great! You understand the theory verywell. +1! And sorry for the false comments.
      $endgroup$
      – Patrick Da Silva
      Dec 10 '12 at 9:17


















    • $begingroup$
      Great! You understand the theory verywell. +1! And sorry for the false comments.
      $endgroup$
      – Patrick Da Silva
      Dec 10 '12 at 9:17
















    $begingroup$
    Great! You understand the theory verywell. +1! And sorry for the false comments.
    $endgroup$
    – Patrick Da Silva
    Dec 10 '12 at 9:17




    $begingroup$
    Great! You understand the theory verywell. +1! And sorry for the false comments.
    $endgroup$
    – Patrick Da Silva
    Dec 10 '12 at 9:17











    15












    $begingroup$

    Look at $S_4$ and its following subgroups $A = langle (12)(34) rangle$ and $B={(12)(34),(13)(42),(23)(41),e }$. Try to show that $A$ is normal in $B$ and $B$ is normal in $S_4$ but $A$ is not normal in $S_4$.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Good eye! I like this example. How about you show it? The proof is not long. No calculations required. I challenge you (unless you were leaving the exercise to the OP).
      $endgroup$
      – Patrick Da Silva
      Dec 10 '12 at 7:59












    • $begingroup$
      @PatrickDaSilva I've fleshed out this argument in an answer below, but this leads to an interesting line of investigation: What is the smallest counterexample? As you point out, $|G|geq 8$, but $D_8$ fails, and the quaternion group fails too since ${1,-1}lhd Q_8$ is the only subgroup of order 2.
      $endgroup$
      – Mario Carneiro
      Dec 10 '12 at 9:09






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @PatrickDaSilva $A_4$ is normal in $S_4$ and the sylow 2 subgroup of of $A_4$ is a unique group of order 4 hence the group of $B$ given above will be normal in $S_4$ and the normality of $A$ in $B$ is becuase of the fact $[B:A]=2$
      $endgroup$
      – jim
      Dec 10 '12 at 10:56
















    15












    $begingroup$

    Look at $S_4$ and its following subgroups $A = langle (12)(34) rangle$ and $B={(12)(34),(13)(42),(23)(41),e }$. Try to show that $A$ is normal in $B$ and $B$ is normal in $S_4$ but $A$ is not normal in $S_4$.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Good eye! I like this example. How about you show it? The proof is not long. No calculations required. I challenge you (unless you were leaving the exercise to the OP).
      $endgroup$
      – Patrick Da Silva
      Dec 10 '12 at 7:59












    • $begingroup$
      @PatrickDaSilva I've fleshed out this argument in an answer below, but this leads to an interesting line of investigation: What is the smallest counterexample? As you point out, $|G|geq 8$, but $D_8$ fails, and the quaternion group fails too since ${1,-1}lhd Q_8$ is the only subgroup of order 2.
      $endgroup$
      – Mario Carneiro
      Dec 10 '12 at 9:09






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @PatrickDaSilva $A_4$ is normal in $S_4$ and the sylow 2 subgroup of of $A_4$ is a unique group of order 4 hence the group of $B$ given above will be normal in $S_4$ and the normality of $A$ in $B$ is becuase of the fact $[B:A]=2$
      $endgroup$
      – jim
      Dec 10 '12 at 10:56














    15












    15








    15





    $begingroup$

    Look at $S_4$ and its following subgroups $A = langle (12)(34) rangle$ and $B={(12)(34),(13)(42),(23)(41),e }$. Try to show that $A$ is normal in $B$ and $B$ is normal in $S_4$ but $A$ is not normal in $S_4$.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    Look at $S_4$ and its following subgroups $A = langle (12)(34) rangle$ and $B={(12)(34),(13)(42),(23)(41),e }$. Try to show that $A$ is normal in $B$ and $B$ is normal in $S_4$ but $A$ is not normal in $S_4$.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Apr 18 '17 at 12:16









    Error 404

    3,88321336




    3,88321336










    answered Dec 10 '12 at 7:56









    jimjim

    2,776829




    2,776829












    • $begingroup$
      Good eye! I like this example. How about you show it? The proof is not long. No calculations required. I challenge you (unless you were leaving the exercise to the OP).
      $endgroup$
      – Patrick Da Silva
      Dec 10 '12 at 7:59












    • $begingroup$
      @PatrickDaSilva I've fleshed out this argument in an answer below, but this leads to an interesting line of investigation: What is the smallest counterexample? As you point out, $|G|geq 8$, but $D_8$ fails, and the quaternion group fails too since ${1,-1}lhd Q_8$ is the only subgroup of order 2.
      $endgroup$
      – Mario Carneiro
      Dec 10 '12 at 9:09






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @PatrickDaSilva $A_4$ is normal in $S_4$ and the sylow 2 subgroup of of $A_4$ is a unique group of order 4 hence the group of $B$ given above will be normal in $S_4$ and the normality of $A$ in $B$ is becuase of the fact $[B:A]=2$
      $endgroup$
      – jim
      Dec 10 '12 at 10:56


















    • $begingroup$
      Good eye! I like this example. How about you show it? The proof is not long. No calculations required. I challenge you (unless you were leaving the exercise to the OP).
      $endgroup$
      – Patrick Da Silva
      Dec 10 '12 at 7:59












    • $begingroup$
      @PatrickDaSilva I've fleshed out this argument in an answer below, but this leads to an interesting line of investigation: What is the smallest counterexample? As you point out, $|G|geq 8$, but $D_8$ fails, and the quaternion group fails too since ${1,-1}lhd Q_8$ is the only subgroup of order 2.
      $endgroup$
      – Mario Carneiro
      Dec 10 '12 at 9:09






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @PatrickDaSilva $A_4$ is normal in $S_4$ and the sylow 2 subgroup of of $A_4$ is a unique group of order 4 hence the group of $B$ given above will be normal in $S_4$ and the normality of $A$ in $B$ is becuase of the fact $[B:A]=2$
      $endgroup$
      – jim
      Dec 10 '12 at 10:56
















    $begingroup$
    Good eye! I like this example. How about you show it? The proof is not long. No calculations required. I challenge you (unless you were leaving the exercise to the OP).
    $endgroup$
    – Patrick Da Silva
    Dec 10 '12 at 7:59






    $begingroup$
    Good eye! I like this example. How about you show it? The proof is not long. No calculations required. I challenge you (unless you were leaving the exercise to the OP).
    $endgroup$
    – Patrick Da Silva
    Dec 10 '12 at 7:59














    $begingroup$
    @PatrickDaSilva I've fleshed out this argument in an answer below, but this leads to an interesting line of investigation: What is the smallest counterexample? As you point out, $|G|geq 8$, but $D_8$ fails, and the quaternion group fails too since ${1,-1}lhd Q_8$ is the only subgroup of order 2.
    $endgroup$
    – Mario Carneiro
    Dec 10 '12 at 9:09




    $begingroup$
    @PatrickDaSilva I've fleshed out this argument in an answer below, but this leads to an interesting line of investigation: What is the smallest counterexample? As you point out, $|G|geq 8$, but $D_8$ fails, and the quaternion group fails too since ${1,-1}lhd Q_8$ is the only subgroup of order 2.
    $endgroup$
    – Mario Carneiro
    Dec 10 '12 at 9:09




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    @PatrickDaSilva $A_4$ is normal in $S_4$ and the sylow 2 subgroup of of $A_4$ is a unique group of order 4 hence the group of $B$ given above will be normal in $S_4$ and the normality of $A$ in $B$ is becuase of the fact $[B:A]=2$
    $endgroup$
    – jim
    Dec 10 '12 at 10:56




    $begingroup$
    @PatrickDaSilva $A_4$ is normal in $S_4$ and the sylow 2 subgroup of of $A_4$ is a unique group of order 4 hence the group of $B$ given above will be normal in $S_4$ and the normality of $A$ in $B$ is becuase of the fact $[B:A]=2$
    $endgroup$
    – jim
    Dec 10 '12 at 10:56











    0












    $begingroup$

    We need a non-abelian group, since all subgroups of abelian groups are normal. One small candidate is $D_8$, the symmetries of a square, here in a little more detail about how we might go about finding examples:



    Consider all the subgroups in $D_8$. It's useful to visualize the subgroups as a lattice:





    (Picture of Dummit and Foote I found on the web)



    Now we try to pick an $H$. For all the subgroups on the third row from the top, their only proper subgroup is the trivial subgroup, which is trivially normal to $G$, so it doesn't make sense to use any of the subgroups on the third row for $H$.



    Our only options for $H$ now are the second row: $langle s, r^2 rangle$, $langle r rangle$, and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$. We observe that if $H = langle r rangle$, the proper subgroups $langle r^2 rangle$ and $1$ are both normal to $D_8$, so that case is excluded. Our candidates are $langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$.



    Take $H = langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $K = langle s rangle$. It's easy to verify that $langle s rangle$ is not normal to $D_8$. All that's left is to show $K lhd H$ and $H lhd G$.



    This is not difficult if we remember that any element in $D_8$ can be written as $r^i s^j$ with $0 le i le 3$ and $j = 0, 1$. Also we have the identity $rs = sr^{-1}$ which can repeated as $r^k s = s r^{-k}$. So for $g in D_8$, we want to prove or disprove $r^i s^j n s^j r^{-i} in N$ to show $N lhd G$.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$


















      0












      $begingroup$

      We need a non-abelian group, since all subgroups of abelian groups are normal. One small candidate is $D_8$, the symmetries of a square, here in a little more detail about how we might go about finding examples:



      Consider all the subgroups in $D_8$. It's useful to visualize the subgroups as a lattice:





      (Picture of Dummit and Foote I found on the web)



      Now we try to pick an $H$. For all the subgroups on the third row from the top, their only proper subgroup is the trivial subgroup, which is trivially normal to $G$, so it doesn't make sense to use any of the subgroups on the third row for $H$.



      Our only options for $H$ now are the second row: $langle s, r^2 rangle$, $langle r rangle$, and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$. We observe that if $H = langle r rangle$, the proper subgroups $langle r^2 rangle$ and $1$ are both normal to $D_8$, so that case is excluded. Our candidates are $langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$.



      Take $H = langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $K = langle s rangle$. It's easy to verify that $langle s rangle$ is not normal to $D_8$. All that's left is to show $K lhd H$ and $H lhd G$.



      This is not difficult if we remember that any element in $D_8$ can be written as $r^i s^j$ with $0 le i le 3$ and $j = 0, 1$. Also we have the identity $rs = sr^{-1}$ which can repeated as $r^k s = s r^{-k}$. So for $g in D_8$, we want to prove or disprove $r^i s^j n s^j r^{-i} in N$ to show $N lhd G$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$
















        0












        0








        0





        $begingroup$

        We need a non-abelian group, since all subgroups of abelian groups are normal. One small candidate is $D_8$, the symmetries of a square, here in a little more detail about how we might go about finding examples:



        Consider all the subgroups in $D_8$. It's useful to visualize the subgroups as a lattice:





        (Picture of Dummit and Foote I found on the web)



        Now we try to pick an $H$. For all the subgroups on the third row from the top, their only proper subgroup is the trivial subgroup, which is trivially normal to $G$, so it doesn't make sense to use any of the subgroups on the third row for $H$.



        Our only options for $H$ now are the second row: $langle s, r^2 rangle$, $langle r rangle$, and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$. We observe that if $H = langle r rangle$, the proper subgroups $langle r^2 rangle$ and $1$ are both normal to $D_8$, so that case is excluded. Our candidates are $langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$.



        Take $H = langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $K = langle s rangle$. It's easy to verify that $langle s rangle$ is not normal to $D_8$. All that's left is to show $K lhd H$ and $H lhd G$.



        This is not difficult if we remember that any element in $D_8$ can be written as $r^i s^j$ with $0 le i le 3$ and $j = 0, 1$. Also we have the identity $rs = sr^{-1}$ which can repeated as $r^k s = s r^{-k}$. So for $g in D_8$, we want to prove or disprove $r^i s^j n s^j r^{-i} in N$ to show $N lhd G$.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        We need a non-abelian group, since all subgroups of abelian groups are normal. One small candidate is $D_8$, the symmetries of a square, here in a little more detail about how we might go about finding examples:



        Consider all the subgroups in $D_8$. It's useful to visualize the subgroups as a lattice:





        (Picture of Dummit and Foote I found on the web)



        Now we try to pick an $H$. For all the subgroups on the third row from the top, their only proper subgroup is the trivial subgroup, which is trivially normal to $G$, so it doesn't make sense to use any of the subgroups on the third row for $H$.



        Our only options for $H$ now are the second row: $langle s, r^2 rangle$, $langle r rangle$, and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$. We observe that if $H = langle r rangle$, the proper subgroups $langle r^2 rangle$ and $1$ are both normal to $D_8$, so that case is excluded. Our candidates are $langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $langle rs, r^2 rangle$.



        Take $H = langle s, r^2 rangle$ and $K = langle s rangle$. It's easy to verify that $langle s rangle$ is not normal to $D_8$. All that's left is to show $K lhd H$ and $H lhd G$.



        This is not difficult if we remember that any element in $D_8$ can be written as $r^i s^j$ with $0 le i le 3$ and $j = 0, 1$. Also we have the identity $rs = sr^{-1}$ which can repeated as $r^k s = s r^{-k}$. So for $g in D_8$, we want to prove or disprove $r^i s^j n s^j r^{-i} in N$ to show $N lhd G$.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Oct 9 '18 at 6:00









        qwrqwr

        6,69342755




        6,69342755






























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