When a wind turbine does not produce enough electricity how does the power company compensate for the loss?
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I heard once that when a wind turbine power plant doesn't produce enough electricity the power company's are sometimes forced to turn on a couple of jet engines in order to compensate for the loss, is there any truth to that? I imagine stability is a key factor in keeping the production static and efficient, so what would the power company do?
power-engineering power-grid
asked 58 mins ago
RobRob
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add a comment |
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I heard once that when a wind turbine power plant doesn't produce enough electricity the power company's are sometimes forced to turn on a couple of jet engines in order to compensate for the loss, is there any truth to that? I imagine stability is a key factor in keeping the production static and efficient, so what would the power company do?
power-engineering power-grid
asked 58 mins ago
RobRob
1092
New contributor
Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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"Peaker plants" and "load following plants" (see Andrey Akhmetov's answer, below) would exist even if wind turbines had never been invented. They're needed to match the on-line generating capacity to the demand for electric power, and the demand can change just as quickly as the wind can change.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
11 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I heard once that when a wind turbine power plant doesn't produce enough electricity the power company's are sometimes forced to turn on a couple of jet engines in order to compensate for the loss, is there any truth to that? I imagine stability is a key factor in keeping the production static and efficient, so what would the power company do?
power-engineering power-grid
asked 58 mins ago
RobRob
1092
New contributor
Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
I heard once that when a wind turbine power plant doesn't produce enough electricity the power company's are sometimes forced to turn on a couple of jet engines in order to compensate for the loss, is there any truth to that? I imagine stability is a key factor in keeping the production static and efficient, so what would the power company do?
power-engineering power-grid
power-engineering power-grid
asked 58 mins ago
RobRob
1092
New contributor
Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 58 mins ago
RobRob
1092
New contributor
Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 58 mins ago
RobRob
1092
New contributor
Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 58 mins ago
RobRob
1092
asked 58 mins ago
RobRob
1092
1092
New contributor
Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Rob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$begingroup$
"Peaker plants" and "load following plants" (see Andrey Akhmetov's answer, below) would exist even if wind turbines had never been invented. They're needed to match the on-line generating capacity to the demand for electric power, and the demand can change just as quickly as the wind can change.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
11 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
"Peaker plants" and "load following plants" (see Andrey Akhmetov's answer, below) would exist even if wind turbines had never been invented. They're needed to match the on-line generating capacity to the demand for electric power, and the demand can change just as quickly as the wind can change.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
11 mins ago
$begingroup$
"Peaker plants" and "load following plants" (see Andrey Akhmetov's answer, below) would exist even if wind turbines had never been invented. They're needed to match the on-line generating capacity to the demand for electric power, and the demand can change just as quickly as the wind can change.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
11 mins ago
$begingroup$
"Peaker plants" and "load following plants" (see Andrey Akhmetov's answer, below) would exist even if wind turbines had never been invented. They're needed to match the on-line generating capacity to the demand for electric power, and the demand can change just as quickly as the wind can change.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
11 mins ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
This is correct. When the demand exceeds supply, voltage will sag and frequency will drop (which can risk equipment failure and is certainly an undesirable situation). The operators of power grids will turn on alternative sources of generation in order to correct the imbalance as soon as it is noticed (often under the coordination of a regional transmission organization such as CAISO).
Grid operators are very careful to ensure that the grid frequency is properly maintained (source); even a few seconds of drift (i.e. a few hundred cycles ahead or behind) require RTOs and related agencies to take corrective action where safe.
In order to understand the mix of energy a bit more thoroughly, it's necessary to take into account the types of generation, which include base-load plants, load-following plants, intermittent sources, and peaker plants:
- Base-load plants are designed to operate at high cost efficiency (not necessarily environmental efficiency or any other measure of efficiency, unless dictated by local laws and priorities), but cannot be adjusted quickly. Examples of these may include large coal and nuclear base load.
- Load-following plants can adjust if they have capacity (e.g. hydroelectric or smaller fuel-burning plants)
- Peaker plants are agile and can be brought online quickly (e.g. gas turbines), but are inefficient. When the base-load plants are insufficient, load-following plants increase their load; if this capacity is exhausted or the grid is experiencing rapid swings in load that the load-following plants cannot keep up with, then peakers will come online and begin burning fuel to achieve enough supply to balance the demand.
Another factor to consider is planning: If an area has consistent winds and enough wind turbines, the wind can be considered part of base-load: It cannot be adjusted, but is relatively predictable and consistent day-to-day. Gaps in the wind are treated the same way as any other shortfall of base-load: first via load-following plants if possible and then with the help of the peakers.
Known gaps and shortfalls can also be handled through trading. For example, Washington State, US has abundant hydroelectric power, and exports energy to fourteen other states. Its overproduction of energy (which can itself be as harmful as underproduction) is usefully diverted to help make up some of the supply of neighboring states such as California (source). This export includes base-load if the local demand is dropping too quickly for the operating power plants to adjust.
Stored energy also makes a contribution. The sources for such extra energy may be storage sites such as pumped energy storage, batteries (e.g. this), or they may be generation (not necessarily burning fuel).
Lastly, load-shedding is a last-resort. If conditions are adverse (very high demand such as air-conditioning on a hot day, transmission line failures, loss of base-load, etc) then the grid operator may increase the real-time price of industrial energy, or even require that industrial grid users curtail their demand to avoid grid instability. If this is insufficient then blackouts and brownouts will occur, to prevent the total loss of the grid and its most critical users (hospitals, emergency services, communications).
answered 49 mins ago
Andrey AkhmetovAndrey Akhmetov
1,078722
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
That's all fairly accurate except I don't think coal is very efficient. Wind generation doesn't really count for much in the big picture yet. The NG gas turbines are expensive to operate but can load balance very quickly. Base line plant adjust so slowly that when demand drops too quickly electrity has to be dumped elsewhere. Which means selling it at significantly less then the cost of producing it. I know that our price in Canada changes with the American dollar. Excess power goes back and forth across the border and makes a mess of the price. The whole grid is interconnected.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
34 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@JoeFala Coal is not efficient relative to its environmental effect, but it is efficient relative to its financial cost in many parts of the world, to the best of my knowledge.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
Oh yeah it's cheap but from a combustion efficiency point of view I don't think it's very good. I believe that many of the plants are being upgraded but because the cost is still low enough it not financially sustainable to run the higher efficiency plants. I haven't brushed up on this for several years, so I'm not familiar with the current technology. I'm pretty sure nuclear is the cheapest to run and the cleanest overall but expensive to set up and people are terrified of it. Nuclear is actually cleaner then solar panels if you factor in the production of the material in the panels.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
J-Power's unit 2 ultrasupercritical(mouthfull) in Japan has 45% efficiency which is pretty damn good. Nuclear power is is like 55% I think more of those ultrasupercritical plants are coming online soon.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
20 mins ago
$begingroup$
@JoeFala I've edited the answer to mention cost-efficiency in particular to avoid any confusion. Thank you for letting me know about the imprecise wording.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
18 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I was going to scold you for not doing a search -- then couldn't find a decent answer! So -- here's a short answer:
First, jet engines -- no. You're thinking of gas turbines, but they are not jet engines (try a web search on "Gas Turbine").
Second, there's not a lot of energy storage on the electrical grid, aside from tanks of gas, piles of coal, uranium rods, and water behind dams. Batteries are starting to look like maybe they'll be practical, eventually. But by and large, when "alternative" energy sources poop out, there needs to be a "traditional" energy source that kicks in. Gas turbines are good for this because they can be brought on line quickly.
This wiki article goes into the grid storage issue.
answered 50 mins ago
TimWescottTimWescott
5,6841414
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The statement on the gas turbine is imprecise but not incorrect. An aeroderivative gas turbine is basically a jet engine, do a web search on this. Peaker plants are usually aeroderivative gas turbines because they can start up in ~15 minutes. The alternative are called industrial gas turbines which are much larger and more efficient. Industrial gas turbines, especially combined cycle units, take hours to start up and shut down and so are inappropriate for peaking use.
$endgroup$
– user71659
4 mins ago
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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$begingroup$
This is correct. When the demand exceeds supply, voltage will sag and frequency will drop (which can risk equipment failure and is certainly an undesirable situation). The operators of power grids will turn on alternative sources of generation in order to correct the imbalance as soon as it is noticed (often under the coordination of a regional transmission organization such as CAISO).
Grid operators are very careful to ensure that the grid frequency is properly maintained (source); even a few seconds of drift (i.e. a few hundred cycles ahead or behind) require RTOs and related agencies to take corrective action where safe.
In order to understand the mix of energy a bit more thoroughly, it's necessary to take into account the types of generation, which include base-load plants, load-following plants, intermittent sources, and peaker plants:
- Base-load plants are designed to operate at high cost efficiency (not necessarily environmental efficiency or any other measure of efficiency, unless dictated by local laws and priorities), but cannot be adjusted quickly. Examples of these may include large coal and nuclear base load.
- Load-following plants can adjust if they have capacity (e.g. hydroelectric or smaller fuel-burning plants)
- Peaker plants are agile and can be brought online quickly (e.g. gas turbines), but are inefficient. When the base-load plants are insufficient, load-following plants increase their load; if this capacity is exhausted or the grid is experiencing rapid swings in load that the load-following plants cannot keep up with, then peakers will come online and begin burning fuel to achieve enough supply to balance the demand.
Another factor to consider is planning: If an area has consistent winds and enough wind turbines, the wind can be considered part of base-load: It cannot be adjusted, but is relatively predictable and consistent day-to-day. Gaps in the wind are treated the same way as any other shortfall of base-load: first via load-following plants if possible and then with the help of the peakers.
Known gaps and shortfalls can also be handled through trading. For example, Washington State, US has abundant hydroelectric power, and exports energy to fourteen other states. Its overproduction of energy (which can itself be as harmful as underproduction) is usefully diverted to help make up some of the supply of neighboring states such as California (source). This export includes base-load if the local demand is dropping too quickly for the operating power plants to adjust.
Stored energy also makes a contribution. The sources for such extra energy may be storage sites such as pumped energy storage, batteries (e.g. this), or they may be generation (not necessarily burning fuel).
Lastly, load-shedding is a last-resort. If conditions are adverse (very high demand such as air-conditioning on a hot day, transmission line failures, loss of base-load, etc) then the grid operator may increase the real-time price of industrial energy, or even require that industrial grid users curtail their demand to avoid grid instability. If this is insufficient then blackouts and brownouts will occur, to prevent the total loss of the grid and its most critical users (hospitals, emergency services, communications).
answered 49 mins ago
Andrey AkhmetovAndrey Akhmetov
1,078722
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
That's all fairly accurate except I don't think coal is very efficient. Wind generation doesn't really count for much in the big picture yet. The NG gas turbines are expensive to operate but can load balance very quickly. Base line plant adjust so slowly that when demand drops too quickly electrity has to be dumped elsewhere. Which means selling it at significantly less then the cost of producing it. I know that our price in Canada changes with the American dollar. Excess power goes back and forth across the border and makes a mess of the price. The whole grid is interconnected.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
34 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@JoeFala Coal is not efficient relative to its environmental effect, but it is efficient relative to its financial cost in many parts of the world, to the best of my knowledge.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
Oh yeah it's cheap but from a combustion efficiency point of view I don't think it's very good. I believe that many of the plants are being upgraded but because the cost is still low enough it not financially sustainable to run the higher efficiency plants. I haven't brushed up on this for several years, so I'm not familiar with the current technology. I'm pretty sure nuclear is the cheapest to run and the cleanest overall but expensive to set up and people are terrified of it. Nuclear is actually cleaner then solar panels if you factor in the production of the material in the panels.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
J-Power's unit 2 ultrasupercritical(mouthfull) in Japan has 45% efficiency which is pretty damn good. Nuclear power is is like 55% I think more of those ultrasupercritical plants are coming online soon.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
20 mins ago
$begingroup$
@JoeFala I've edited the answer to mention cost-efficiency in particular to avoid any confusion. Thank you for letting me know about the imprecise wording.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
18 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is correct. When the demand exceeds supply, voltage will sag and frequency will drop (which can risk equipment failure and is certainly an undesirable situation). The operators of power grids will turn on alternative sources of generation in order to correct the imbalance as soon as it is noticed (often under the coordination of a regional transmission organization such as CAISO).
Grid operators are very careful to ensure that the grid frequency is properly maintained (source); even a few seconds of drift (i.e. a few hundred cycles ahead or behind) require RTOs and related agencies to take corrective action where safe.
In order to understand the mix of energy a bit more thoroughly, it's necessary to take into account the types of generation, which include base-load plants, load-following plants, intermittent sources, and peaker plants:
- Base-load plants are designed to operate at high cost efficiency (not necessarily environmental efficiency or any other measure of efficiency, unless dictated by local laws and priorities), but cannot be adjusted quickly. Examples of these may include large coal and nuclear base load.
- Load-following plants can adjust if they have capacity (e.g. hydroelectric or smaller fuel-burning plants)
- Peaker plants are agile and can be brought online quickly (e.g. gas turbines), but are inefficient. When the base-load plants are insufficient, load-following plants increase their load; if this capacity is exhausted or the grid is experiencing rapid swings in load that the load-following plants cannot keep up with, then peakers will come online and begin burning fuel to achieve enough supply to balance the demand.
Another factor to consider is planning: If an area has consistent winds and enough wind turbines, the wind can be considered part of base-load: It cannot be adjusted, but is relatively predictable and consistent day-to-day. Gaps in the wind are treated the same way as any other shortfall of base-load: first via load-following plants if possible and then with the help of the peakers.
Known gaps and shortfalls can also be handled through trading. For example, Washington State, US has abundant hydroelectric power, and exports energy to fourteen other states. Its overproduction of energy (which can itself be as harmful as underproduction) is usefully diverted to help make up some of the supply of neighboring states such as California (source). This export includes base-load if the local demand is dropping too quickly for the operating power plants to adjust.
Stored energy also makes a contribution. The sources for such extra energy may be storage sites such as pumped energy storage, batteries (e.g. this), or they may be generation (not necessarily burning fuel).
Lastly, load-shedding is a last-resort. If conditions are adverse (very high demand such as air-conditioning on a hot day, transmission line failures, loss of base-load, etc) then the grid operator may increase the real-time price of industrial energy, or even require that industrial grid users curtail their demand to avoid grid instability. If this is insufficient then blackouts and brownouts will occur, to prevent the total loss of the grid and its most critical users (hospitals, emergency services, communications).
answered 49 mins ago
Andrey AkhmetovAndrey Akhmetov
1,078722
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
That's all fairly accurate except I don't think coal is very efficient. Wind generation doesn't really count for much in the big picture yet. The NG gas turbines are expensive to operate but can load balance very quickly. Base line plant adjust so slowly that when demand drops too quickly electrity has to be dumped elsewhere. Which means selling it at significantly less then the cost of producing it. I know that our price in Canada changes with the American dollar. Excess power goes back and forth across the border and makes a mess of the price. The whole grid is interconnected.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
34 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@JoeFala Coal is not efficient relative to its environmental effect, but it is efficient relative to its financial cost in many parts of the world, to the best of my knowledge.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
Oh yeah it's cheap but from a combustion efficiency point of view I don't think it's very good. I believe that many of the plants are being upgraded but because the cost is still low enough it not financially sustainable to run the higher efficiency plants. I haven't brushed up on this for several years, so I'm not familiar with the current technology. I'm pretty sure nuclear is the cheapest to run and the cleanest overall but expensive to set up and people are terrified of it. Nuclear is actually cleaner then solar panels if you factor in the production of the material in the panels.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
J-Power's unit 2 ultrasupercritical(mouthfull) in Japan has 45% efficiency which is pretty damn good. Nuclear power is is like 55% I think more of those ultrasupercritical plants are coming online soon.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
20 mins ago
$begingroup$
@JoeFala I've edited the answer to mention cost-efficiency in particular to avoid any confusion. Thank you for letting me know about the imprecise wording.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
18 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is correct. When the demand exceeds supply, voltage will sag and frequency will drop (which can risk equipment failure and is certainly an undesirable situation). The operators of power grids will turn on alternative sources of generation in order to correct the imbalance as soon as it is noticed (often under the coordination of a regional transmission organization such as CAISO).
Grid operators are very careful to ensure that the grid frequency is properly maintained (source); even a few seconds of drift (i.e. a few hundred cycles ahead or behind) require RTOs and related agencies to take corrective action where safe.
In order to understand the mix of energy a bit more thoroughly, it's necessary to take into account the types of generation, which include base-load plants, load-following plants, intermittent sources, and peaker plants:
- Base-load plants are designed to operate at high cost efficiency (not necessarily environmental efficiency or any other measure of efficiency, unless dictated by local laws and priorities), but cannot be adjusted quickly. Examples of these may include large coal and nuclear base load.
- Load-following plants can adjust if they have capacity (e.g. hydroelectric or smaller fuel-burning plants)
- Peaker plants are agile and can be brought online quickly (e.g. gas turbines), but are inefficient. When the base-load plants are insufficient, load-following plants increase their load; if this capacity is exhausted or the grid is experiencing rapid swings in load that the load-following plants cannot keep up with, then peakers will come online and begin burning fuel to achieve enough supply to balance the demand.
Another factor to consider is planning: If an area has consistent winds and enough wind turbines, the wind can be considered part of base-load: It cannot be adjusted, but is relatively predictable and consistent day-to-day. Gaps in the wind are treated the same way as any other shortfall of base-load: first via load-following plants if possible and then with the help of the peakers.
Known gaps and shortfalls can also be handled through trading. For example, Washington State, US has abundant hydroelectric power, and exports energy to fourteen other states. Its overproduction of energy (which can itself be as harmful as underproduction) is usefully diverted to help make up some of the supply of neighboring states such as California (source). This export includes base-load if the local demand is dropping too quickly for the operating power plants to adjust.
Stored energy also makes a contribution. The sources for such extra energy may be storage sites such as pumped energy storage, batteries (e.g. this), or they may be generation (not necessarily burning fuel).
Lastly, load-shedding is a last-resort. If conditions are adverse (very high demand such as air-conditioning on a hot day, transmission line failures, loss of base-load, etc) then the grid operator may increase the real-time price of industrial energy, or even require that industrial grid users curtail their demand to avoid grid instability. If this is insufficient then blackouts and brownouts will occur, to prevent the total loss of the grid and its most critical users (hospitals, emergency services, communications).
answered 49 mins ago
Andrey AkhmetovAndrey Akhmetov
1,078722
$endgroup$
This is correct. When the demand exceeds supply, voltage will sag and frequency will drop (which can risk equipment failure and is certainly an undesirable situation). The operators of power grids will turn on alternative sources of generation in order to correct the imbalance as soon as it is noticed (often under the coordination of a regional transmission organization such as CAISO).
Grid operators are very careful to ensure that the grid frequency is properly maintained (source); even a few seconds of drift (i.e. a few hundred cycles ahead or behind) require RTOs and related agencies to take corrective action where safe.
In order to understand the mix of energy a bit more thoroughly, it's necessary to take into account the types of generation, which include base-load plants, load-following plants, intermittent sources, and peaker plants:
- Base-load plants are designed to operate at high cost efficiency (not necessarily environmental efficiency or any other measure of efficiency, unless dictated by local laws and priorities), but cannot be adjusted quickly. Examples of these may include large coal and nuclear base load.
- Load-following plants can adjust if they have capacity (e.g. hydroelectric or smaller fuel-burning plants)
- Peaker plants are agile and can be brought online quickly (e.g. gas turbines), but are inefficient. When the base-load plants are insufficient, load-following plants increase their load; if this capacity is exhausted or the grid is experiencing rapid swings in load that the load-following plants cannot keep up with, then peakers will come online and begin burning fuel to achieve enough supply to balance the demand.
Another factor to consider is planning: If an area has consistent winds and enough wind turbines, the wind can be considered part of base-load: It cannot be adjusted, but is relatively predictable and consistent day-to-day. Gaps in the wind are treated the same way as any other shortfall of base-load: first via load-following plants if possible and then with the help of the peakers.
Known gaps and shortfalls can also be handled through trading. For example, Washington State, US has abundant hydroelectric power, and exports energy to fourteen other states. Its overproduction of energy (which can itself be as harmful as underproduction) is usefully diverted to help make up some of the supply of neighboring states such as California (source). This export includes base-load if the local demand is dropping too quickly for the operating power plants to adjust.
Stored energy also makes a contribution. The sources for such extra energy may be storage sites such as pumped energy storage, batteries (e.g. this), or they may be generation (not necessarily burning fuel).
Lastly, load-shedding is a last-resort. If conditions are adverse (very high demand such as air-conditioning on a hot day, transmission line failures, loss of base-load, etc) then the grid operator may increase the real-time price of industrial energy, or even require that industrial grid users curtail their demand to avoid grid instability. If this is insufficient then blackouts and brownouts will occur, to prevent the total loss of the grid and its most critical users (hospitals, emergency services, communications).
answered 49 mins ago
Andrey AkhmetovAndrey Akhmetov
1,078722
edited 18 mins ago
answered 49 mins ago
Andrey AkhmetovAndrey Akhmetov
1,078722
answered 49 mins ago
Andrey AkhmetovAndrey Akhmetov
1,078722
answered 49 mins ago
Andrey AkhmetovAndrey Akhmetov
1,078722
1,078722
$begingroup$
That's all fairly accurate except I don't think coal is very efficient. Wind generation doesn't really count for much in the big picture yet. The NG gas turbines are expensive to operate but can load balance very quickly. Base line plant adjust so slowly that when demand drops too quickly electrity has to be dumped elsewhere. Which means selling it at significantly less then the cost of producing it. I know that our price in Canada changes with the American dollar. Excess power goes back and forth across the border and makes a mess of the price. The whole grid is interconnected.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
34 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@JoeFala Coal is not efficient relative to its environmental effect, but it is efficient relative to its financial cost in many parts of the world, to the best of my knowledge.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
Oh yeah it's cheap but from a combustion efficiency point of view I don't think it's very good. I believe that many of the plants are being upgraded but because the cost is still low enough it not financially sustainable to run the higher efficiency plants. I haven't brushed up on this for several years, so I'm not familiar with the current technology. I'm pretty sure nuclear is the cheapest to run and the cleanest overall but expensive to set up and people are terrified of it. Nuclear is actually cleaner then solar panels if you factor in the production of the material in the panels.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
J-Power's unit 2 ultrasupercritical(mouthfull) in Japan has 45% efficiency which is pretty damn good. Nuclear power is is like 55% I think more of those ultrasupercritical plants are coming online soon.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
20 mins ago
$begingroup$
@JoeFala I've edited the answer to mention cost-efficiency in particular to avoid any confusion. Thank you for letting me know about the imprecise wording.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
18 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
That's all fairly accurate except I don't think coal is very efficient. Wind generation doesn't really count for much in the big picture yet. The NG gas turbines are expensive to operate but can load balance very quickly. Base line plant adjust so slowly that when demand drops too quickly electrity has to be dumped elsewhere. Which means selling it at significantly less then the cost of producing it. I know that our price in Canada changes with the American dollar. Excess power goes back and forth across the border and makes a mess of the price. The whole grid is interconnected.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
34 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@JoeFala Coal is not efficient relative to its environmental effect, but it is efficient relative to its financial cost in many parts of the world, to the best of my knowledge.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
Oh yeah it's cheap but from a combustion efficiency point of view I don't think it's very good. I believe that many of the plants are being upgraded but because the cost is still low enough it not financially sustainable to run the higher efficiency plants. I haven't brushed up on this for several years, so I'm not familiar with the current technology. I'm pretty sure nuclear is the cheapest to run and the cleanest overall but expensive to set up and people are terrified of it. Nuclear is actually cleaner then solar panels if you factor in the production of the material in the panels.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
J-Power's unit 2 ultrasupercritical(mouthfull) in Japan has 45% efficiency which is pretty damn good. Nuclear power is is like 55% I think more of those ultrasupercritical plants are coming online soon.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
20 mins ago
$begingroup$
@JoeFala I've edited the answer to mention cost-efficiency in particular to avoid any confusion. Thank you for letting me know about the imprecise wording.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
18 mins ago
$begingroup$
That's all fairly accurate except I don't think coal is very efficient. Wind generation doesn't really count for much in the big picture yet. The NG gas turbines are expensive to operate but can load balance very quickly. Base line plant adjust so slowly that when demand drops too quickly electrity has to be dumped elsewhere. Which means selling it at significantly less then the cost of producing it. I know that our price in Canada changes with the American dollar. Excess power goes back and forth across the border and makes a mess of the price. The whole grid is interconnected.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
That's all fairly accurate except I don't think coal is very efficient. Wind generation doesn't really count for much in the big picture yet. The NG gas turbines are expensive to operate but can load balance very quickly. Base line plant adjust so slowly that when demand drops too quickly electrity has to be dumped elsewhere. Which means selling it at significantly less then the cost of producing it. I know that our price in Canada changes with the American dollar. Excess power goes back and forth across the border and makes a mess of the price. The whole grid is interconnected.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
34 mins ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@JoeFala Coal is not efficient relative to its environmental effect, but it is efficient relative to its financial cost in many parts of the world, to the best of my knowledge.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
@JoeFala Coal is not efficient relative to its environmental effect, but it is efficient relative to its financial cost in many parts of the world, to the best of my knowledge.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
Oh yeah it's cheap but from a combustion efficiency point of view I don't think it's very good. I believe that many of the plants are being upgraded but because the cost is still low enough it not financially sustainable to run the higher efficiency plants. I haven't brushed up on this for several years, so I'm not familiar with the current technology. I'm pretty sure nuclear is the cheapest to run and the cleanest overall but expensive to set up and people are terrified of it. Nuclear is actually cleaner then solar panels if you factor in the production of the material in the panels.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
Oh yeah it's cheap but from a combustion efficiency point of view I don't think it's very good. I believe that many of the plants are being upgraded but because the cost is still low enough it not financially sustainable to run the higher efficiency plants. I haven't brushed up on this for several years, so I'm not familiar with the current technology. I'm pretty sure nuclear is the cheapest to run and the cleanest overall but expensive to set up and people are terrified of it. Nuclear is actually cleaner then solar panels if you factor in the production of the material in the panels.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
J-Power's unit 2 ultrasupercritical(mouthfull) in Japan has 45% efficiency which is pretty damn good. Nuclear power is is like 55% I think more of those ultrasupercritical plants are coming online soon.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
20 mins ago
$begingroup$
J-Power's unit 2 ultrasupercritical(mouthfull) in Japan has 45% efficiency which is pretty damn good. Nuclear power is is like 55% I think more of those ultrasupercritical plants are coming online soon.
$endgroup$
– Joe Fala
20 mins ago
$begingroup$
@JoeFala I've edited the answer to mention cost-efficiency in particular to avoid any confusion. Thank you for letting me know about the imprecise wording.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
18 mins ago
$begingroup$
@JoeFala I've edited the answer to mention cost-efficiency in particular to avoid any confusion. Thank you for letting me know about the imprecise wording.
$endgroup$
– Andrey Akhmetov
18 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I was going to scold you for not doing a search -- then couldn't find a decent answer! So -- here's a short answer:
First, jet engines -- no. You're thinking of gas turbines, but they are not jet engines (try a web search on "Gas Turbine").
Second, there's not a lot of energy storage on the electrical grid, aside from tanks of gas, piles of coal, uranium rods, and water behind dams. Batteries are starting to look like maybe they'll be practical, eventually. But by and large, when "alternative" energy sources poop out, there needs to be a "traditional" energy source that kicks in. Gas turbines are good for this because they can be brought on line quickly.
This wiki article goes into the grid storage issue.
answered 50 mins ago
TimWescottTimWescott
5,6841414
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The statement on the gas turbine is imprecise but not incorrect. An aeroderivative gas turbine is basically a jet engine, do a web search on this. Peaker plants are usually aeroderivative gas turbines because they can start up in ~15 minutes. The alternative are called industrial gas turbines which are much larger and more efficient. Industrial gas turbines, especially combined cycle units, take hours to start up and shut down and so are inappropriate for peaking use.
$endgroup$
– user71659
4 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I was going to scold you for not doing a search -- then couldn't find a decent answer! So -- here's a short answer:
First, jet engines -- no. You're thinking of gas turbines, but they are not jet engines (try a web search on "Gas Turbine").
Second, there's not a lot of energy storage on the electrical grid, aside from tanks of gas, piles of coal, uranium rods, and water behind dams. Batteries are starting to look like maybe they'll be practical, eventually. But by and large, when "alternative" energy sources poop out, there needs to be a "traditional" energy source that kicks in. Gas turbines are good for this because they can be brought on line quickly.
This wiki article goes into the grid storage issue.
answered 50 mins ago
TimWescottTimWescott
5,6841414
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The statement on the gas turbine is imprecise but not incorrect. An aeroderivative gas turbine is basically a jet engine, do a web search on this. Peaker plants are usually aeroderivative gas turbines because they can start up in ~15 minutes. The alternative are called industrial gas turbines which are much larger and more efficient. Industrial gas turbines, especially combined cycle units, take hours to start up and shut down and so are inappropriate for peaking use.
$endgroup$
– user71659
4 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I was going to scold you for not doing a search -- then couldn't find a decent answer! So -- here's a short answer:
First, jet engines -- no. You're thinking of gas turbines, but they are not jet engines (try a web search on "Gas Turbine").
Second, there's not a lot of energy storage on the electrical grid, aside from tanks of gas, piles of coal, uranium rods, and water behind dams. Batteries are starting to look like maybe they'll be practical, eventually. But by and large, when "alternative" energy sources poop out, there needs to be a "traditional" energy source that kicks in. Gas turbines are good for this because they can be brought on line quickly.
This wiki article goes into the grid storage issue.
answered 50 mins ago
TimWescottTimWescott
5,6841414
$endgroup$
I was going to scold you for not doing a search -- then couldn't find a decent answer! So -- here's a short answer:
First, jet engines -- no. You're thinking of gas turbines, but they are not jet engines (try a web search on "Gas Turbine").
Second, there's not a lot of energy storage on the electrical grid, aside from tanks of gas, piles of coal, uranium rods, and water behind dams. Batteries are starting to look like maybe they'll be practical, eventually. But by and large, when "alternative" energy sources poop out, there needs to be a "traditional" energy source that kicks in. Gas turbines are good for this because they can be brought on line quickly.
This wiki article goes into the grid storage issue.
answered 50 mins ago
TimWescottTimWescott
5,6841414
answered 50 mins ago
TimWescottTimWescott
5,6841414
answered 50 mins ago
TimWescottTimWescott
5,6841414
answered 50 mins ago
TimWescottTimWescott
5,6841414
5,6841414
$begingroup$
The statement on the gas turbine is imprecise but not incorrect. An aeroderivative gas turbine is basically a jet engine, do a web search on this. Peaker plants are usually aeroderivative gas turbines because they can start up in ~15 minutes. The alternative are called industrial gas turbines which are much larger and more efficient. Industrial gas turbines, especially combined cycle units, take hours to start up and shut down and so are inappropriate for peaking use.
$endgroup$
– user71659
4 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The statement on the gas turbine is imprecise but not incorrect. An aeroderivative gas turbine is basically a jet engine, do a web search on this. Peaker plants are usually aeroderivative gas turbines because they can start up in ~15 minutes. The alternative are called industrial gas turbines which are much larger and more efficient. Industrial gas turbines, especially combined cycle units, take hours to start up and shut down and so are inappropriate for peaking use.
$endgroup$
– user71659
4 mins ago
$begingroup$
The statement on the gas turbine is imprecise but not incorrect. An aeroderivative gas turbine is basically a jet engine, do a web search on this. Peaker plants are usually aeroderivative gas turbines because they can start up in ~15 minutes. The alternative are called industrial gas turbines which are much larger and more efficient. Industrial gas turbines, especially combined cycle units, take hours to start up and shut down and so are inappropriate for peaking use.
$endgroup$
– user71659
4 mins ago
$begingroup$
The statement on the gas turbine is imprecise but not incorrect. An aeroderivative gas turbine is basically a jet engine, do a web search on this. Peaker plants are usually aeroderivative gas turbines because they can start up in ~15 minutes. The alternative are called industrial gas turbines which are much larger and more efficient. Industrial gas turbines, especially combined cycle units, take hours to start up and shut down and so are inappropriate for peaking use.
$endgroup$
– user71659
4 mins ago
add a comment |
Rob is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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$begingroup$
"Peaker plants" and "load following plants" (see Andrey Akhmetov's answer, below) would exist even if wind turbines had never been invented. They're needed to match the on-line generating capacity to the demand for electric power, and the demand can change just as quickly as the wind can change.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
11 mins ago