Example of norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ that's NOT absolutely monotonic.
$begingroup$
We call a norm $|cdot|$ on $mathbb{R}^n$ absolutely monotonic if
$$
|a_i| leq |b_i|, i=1,cdots,n implies |a| leq |b|.
$$
What's an example of norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ that's not absolutely monotonic?
This is an exercise left to the reader -- so presumably not too difficult. But it's giving me some trouble.
The usual suspects that come to mind, i.e. the $ell^p$ norms, $p in [1,infty]$, are all absolutely monotonic.
real-analysis norm normed-spaces
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We call a norm $|cdot|$ on $mathbb{R}^n$ absolutely monotonic if
$$
|a_i| leq |b_i|, i=1,cdots,n implies |a| leq |b|.
$$
What's an example of norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ that's not absolutely monotonic?
This is an exercise left to the reader -- so presumably not too difficult. But it's giving me some trouble.
The usual suspects that come to mind, i.e. the $ell^p$ norms, $p in [1,infty]$, are all absolutely monotonic.
real-analysis norm normed-spaces
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We call a norm $|cdot|$ on $mathbb{R}^n$ absolutely monotonic if
$$
|a_i| leq |b_i|, i=1,cdots,n implies |a| leq |b|.
$$
What's an example of norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ that's not absolutely monotonic?
This is an exercise left to the reader -- so presumably not too difficult. But it's giving me some trouble.
The usual suspects that come to mind, i.e. the $ell^p$ norms, $p in [1,infty]$, are all absolutely monotonic.
real-analysis norm normed-spaces
$endgroup$
We call a norm $|cdot|$ on $mathbb{R}^n$ absolutely monotonic if
$$
|a_i| leq |b_i|, i=1,cdots,n implies |a| leq |b|.
$$
What's an example of norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ that's not absolutely monotonic?
This is an exercise left to the reader -- so presumably not too difficult. But it's giving me some trouble.
The usual suspects that come to mind, i.e. the $ell^p$ norms, $p in [1,infty]$, are all absolutely monotonic.
real-analysis norm normed-spaces
real-analysis norm normed-spaces
asked Dec 14 '18 at 14:58
zxmknzxmkn
340213
340213
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Consider a sheer $A(x,y):=(x,y-x)$ and then the norm $|(x,y)|:=|A(x,y)|_1$. Then $|(1,0)|=2$ but $|(1,1)|=1$.
Interestingly though, for every norm $|cdot|:mathbb{R}^2to[0,infty)$ there exists a linear map $A:mathbb{R}^2tomathbb{R}^2$ such that $|cdot|circ A$ is an absolutely monotonic norm.
To prove this, note that a norm is absolutely monotonic if (and only if, may I add) the smallest axis-aligned rectangle containing the unit disk touches the unit circle at the intersections with the $x$- and $y$-axis. This is a consequence of the triangle inequality. So if we find vectors $v$ and $u$ on the unit sphere such that the unit disk is contained in the parallellogram $[-1,1]vtimes[-1,1]u$, then the unique linear map that sends $v$ to $(1,0)$ and $u$ to $(0,1)$ suffices.
In order to find such $v$ and $u$, we will use the intermediate value theorem. For any angle $theta$ let $v(theta)$ be the unique vector on the unit sphere with angle $theta$ with respect to the origin. The uniqueness follows from the scaling property and the non-degeneracy of norms, and the continuity follows from the triangle inequality. Then let $u(theta)$ be the vector on the unit sphere furthest to the left of the line generated by $v(theta)$. A little bit of a problem here is that $u(theta)$ is not always uniquely defined, and $thetamapsto u(theta)$ is only continuous at points where it is uniquely defined. However, for now just pretend that it is a well-defined continuous function, and I will come back to this later.
We now find that $mathbb{R}vtimes[-1,1]u$ contains the unit disk. Most importantly the intersection of the unit disk with $(1,infty)vtimes[-1,1]u$ is fully contained in either $(1,infty)vtimes[-1,0]u$ or $(1,infty)vtimes[0,1]u$, due to the triangle inequality. If for some $theta$ this intersection lies in one of the two, then if we move $theta$ such that the new $v(theta)$ is where the old $u(theta)$ was, the intersection will lie in the other one. For some $theta$ in between, we must therefore have that the intersection lies in neither. Therefore the unit disk will be contained in $[-1,1]vtimes[-1,1]u$.
Finally, to come back to the little problem. For such problematic $theta$ you can imagine fixing $v(theta)$ while moving $u(theta)$ continuously along the set of all possible values.
This is a little bit heuristic, but I hope it is convincing anyways.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I would like to give an answer similar to Smiley-Craft but from a different point of view:
The standard norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ is given by $|(a,b)|= sqrt {a^2+b^2}$. We can define a similar norm using a different basis.
Given $u,v$ a basis of $mathbb{R}^2$. We can define the norm of $w$ by $$|w| = sqrt{a^2+b^2}$$ where $w=au+bv$.
It is an easy exercise to show that this is indeed a norm (same proof as in the standard norm case).
Since we can change coordinates it will be really easy to define a non-monotonic norm:
For instance choose $u=(frac{1}{2},0)$ and $v=(1,1)$ then $|(1,0)| = 2$ while $|(1,1)| = 1$.
Side note: It is an interesting question whether every norm is absolutely monotonic with respect to some basis. I would guess the answer is yes but I don't know how to approach this question yet.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
One question: $(1,0) = 2cdot(frac{1}{2}, 0) + 0 cdot (1,1)$, so with the norm $|cdot|$ as you define it, wouldn't we then have $|(1,0)| = sqrt{2^2 + 0^2} = 2$, instead of $sqrt{2}$, as you write?
$endgroup$
– zxmkn
Dec 14 '18 at 16:02
$begingroup$
I would like to say that this is indeed a very good intuitive approach. It is also how I found my example. About your side note: I believe I know how to prove this, but the margin of a comment is too narrow to contain ;) Where should I write this?
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Dec 14 '18 at 16:13
$begingroup$
@zxmkn You're right, corrected.
$endgroup$
– Yanko
Dec 14 '18 at 19:25
$begingroup$
@SmileyCraft haha. If you want I can ask this question and you can add your answer.
$endgroup$
– Yanko
Dec 14 '18 at 19:27
1
$begingroup$
I edited my own answer to include this interesting piece of trivia.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Dec 14 '18 at 20:17
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here's a way to come up with an answer using as little geometric intuition as possible.
The standard norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ can be written as:
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2} mapsto begin{pmatrix}a \ bend{pmatrix}^T begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 \ 0 & 1end{bmatrix} begin{pmatrix} a\ b end{pmatrix} tag{1} $$
or
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2} mapsto a^2 + b^2 tag{2} $$
Which makes it immediately clear that, for arbitrarily chosen $(a_1, b_1)$ and $(a_2, b_2)$ .
$$ frac{a_1^2 le a_2^2 ;;;;text{and};;;; b_1^2 le b_2^2}{a_1^2 + b_1^2 le a_2^2 + b_2^2} tag{3} $$
If we stare at (1) and (2), it suggests that by adding a cross term we can "penalize" negative components, so let's pick a simple one, let's call the new norm $nu$.
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} mapsto begin{pmatrix}a \ bend{pmatrix}^T begin{bmatrix} 1 & 1 \ 0 & 1end{bmatrix} begin{pmatrix} a\ b end{pmatrix} tag{4} $$
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} mapsto a^2 + ab + b^2 tag{5} $$
Let's pick $(a_1, b_1) = (2, 2)$ and $(a_2, b_2) = (-3, 3)$ .
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} 2 \ 2 end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} = 4 + 4 + 4 = 12 tag{6} $$
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} -3 \ 3 end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} = 9 - 9 + 9 = 9 tag{7} $$
So, $(2, 2)$ and $(-3, 3)$ indeed demonstrates that $nu$ is not absolutely monotonic.
All that's left is to verify that it's an actual norm.
The norm axioms are:
$$ nu,(alpha v) = |alpha| ,nu,(v) tag{8} $$
$$ nu,(u+v) le nu,(u) + nu,(v) tag{9} $$
$$ nu,(v) = 0 implies v = vec{0} tag{10} $$
(8) falls out of the fact that matrix multiplication is linear. (10) falls out of the invertibility of $left[begin{smallmatrix}1& 1\0& 1end{smallmatrix}right]$
I think the most straightforward way to prove (9) is to note that the matrix $left[begin{smallmatrix}1& 1\0& 1end{smallmatrix}right]$ is upper triangular and hence its eigenvalues with multiplicity are the multiset ${1, 1}$ . Since all of its eigenvalues are positive, the matrix is positive definite and therefore the quadratic form $nu,(u) = u^T left[begin{smallmatrix}1 & 1 \0 & 1end{smallmatrix}right] u$ is a norm.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3039462%2fexample-of-norm-on-mathbbr2-thats-not-absolutely-monotonic%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Consider a sheer $A(x,y):=(x,y-x)$ and then the norm $|(x,y)|:=|A(x,y)|_1$. Then $|(1,0)|=2$ but $|(1,1)|=1$.
Interestingly though, for every norm $|cdot|:mathbb{R}^2to[0,infty)$ there exists a linear map $A:mathbb{R}^2tomathbb{R}^2$ such that $|cdot|circ A$ is an absolutely monotonic norm.
To prove this, note that a norm is absolutely monotonic if (and only if, may I add) the smallest axis-aligned rectangle containing the unit disk touches the unit circle at the intersections with the $x$- and $y$-axis. This is a consequence of the triangle inequality. So if we find vectors $v$ and $u$ on the unit sphere such that the unit disk is contained in the parallellogram $[-1,1]vtimes[-1,1]u$, then the unique linear map that sends $v$ to $(1,0)$ and $u$ to $(0,1)$ suffices.
In order to find such $v$ and $u$, we will use the intermediate value theorem. For any angle $theta$ let $v(theta)$ be the unique vector on the unit sphere with angle $theta$ with respect to the origin. The uniqueness follows from the scaling property and the non-degeneracy of norms, and the continuity follows from the triangle inequality. Then let $u(theta)$ be the vector on the unit sphere furthest to the left of the line generated by $v(theta)$. A little bit of a problem here is that $u(theta)$ is not always uniquely defined, and $thetamapsto u(theta)$ is only continuous at points where it is uniquely defined. However, for now just pretend that it is a well-defined continuous function, and I will come back to this later.
We now find that $mathbb{R}vtimes[-1,1]u$ contains the unit disk. Most importantly the intersection of the unit disk with $(1,infty)vtimes[-1,1]u$ is fully contained in either $(1,infty)vtimes[-1,0]u$ or $(1,infty)vtimes[0,1]u$, due to the triangle inequality. If for some $theta$ this intersection lies in one of the two, then if we move $theta$ such that the new $v(theta)$ is where the old $u(theta)$ was, the intersection will lie in the other one. For some $theta$ in between, we must therefore have that the intersection lies in neither. Therefore the unit disk will be contained in $[-1,1]vtimes[-1,1]u$.
Finally, to come back to the little problem. For such problematic $theta$ you can imagine fixing $v(theta)$ while moving $u(theta)$ continuously along the set of all possible values.
This is a little bit heuristic, but I hope it is convincing anyways.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Consider a sheer $A(x,y):=(x,y-x)$ and then the norm $|(x,y)|:=|A(x,y)|_1$. Then $|(1,0)|=2$ but $|(1,1)|=1$.
Interestingly though, for every norm $|cdot|:mathbb{R}^2to[0,infty)$ there exists a linear map $A:mathbb{R}^2tomathbb{R}^2$ such that $|cdot|circ A$ is an absolutely monotonic norm.
To prove this, note that a norm is absolutely monotonic if (and only if, may I add) the smallest axis-aligned rectangle containing the unit disk touches the unit circle at the intersections with the $x$- and $y$-axis. This is a consequence of the triangle inequality. So if we find vectors $v$ and $u$ on the unit sphere such that the unit disk is contained in the parallellogram $[-1,1]vtimes[-1,1]u$, then the unique linear map that sends $v$ to $(1,0)$ and $u$ to $(0,1)$ suffices.
In order to find such $v$ and $u$, we will use the intermediate value theorem. For any angle $theta$ let $v(theta)$ be the unique vector on the unit sphere with angle $theta$ with respect to the origin. The uniqueness follows from the scaling property and the non-degeneracy of norms, and the continuity follows from the triangle inequality. Then let $u(theta)$ be the vector on the unit sphere furthest to the left of the line generated by $v(theta)$. A little bit of a problem here is that $u(theta)$ is not always uniquely defined, and $thetamapsto u(theta)$ is only continuous at points where it is uniquely defined. However, for now just pretend that it is a well-defined continuous function, and I will come back to this later.
We now find that $mathbb{R}vtimes[-1,1]u$ contains the unit disk. Most importantly the intersection of the unit disk with $(1,infty)vtimes[-1,1]u$ is fully contained in either $(1,infty)vtimes[-1,0]u$ or $(1,infty)vtimes[0,1]u$, due to the triangle inequality. If for some $theta$ this intersection lies in one of the two, then if we move $theta$ such that the new $v(theta)$ is where the old $u(theta)$ was, the intersection will lie in the other one. For some $theta$ in between, we must therefore have that the intersection lies in neither. Therefore the unit disk will be contained in $[-1,1]vtimes[-1,1]u$.
Finally, to come back to the little problem. For such problematic $theta$ you can imagine fixing $v(theta)$ while moving $u(theta)$ continuously along the set of all possible values.
This is a little bit heuristic, but I hope it is convincing anyways.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Consider a sheer $A(x,y):=(x,y-x)$ and then the norm $|(x,y)|:=|A(x,y)|_1$. Then $|(1,0)|=2$ but $|(1,1)|=1$.
Interestingly though, for every norm $|cdot|:mathbb{R}^2to[0,infty)$ there exists a linear map $A:mathbb{R}^2tomathbb{R}^2$ such that $|cdot|circ A$ is an absolutely monotonic norm.
To prove this, note that a norm is absolutely monotonic if (and only if, may I add) the smallest axis-aligned rectangle containing the unit disk touches the unit circle at the intersections with the $x$- and $y$-axis. This is a consequence of the triangle inequality. So if we find vectors $v$ and $u$ on the unit sphere such that the unit disk is contained in the parallellogram $[-1,1]vtimes[-1,1]u$, then the unique linear map that sends $v$ to $(1,0)$ and $u$ to $(0,1)$ suffices.
In order to find such $v$ and $u$, we will use the intermediate value theorem. For any angle $theta$ let $v(theta)$ be the unique vector on the unit sphere with angle $theta$ with respect to the origin. The uniqueness follows from the scaling property and the non-degeneracy of norms, and the continuity follows from the triangle inequality. Then let $u(theta)$ be the vector on the unit sphere furthest to the left of the line generated by $v(theta)$. A little bit of a problem here is that $u(theta)$ is not always uniquely defined, and $thetamapsto u(theta)$ is only continuous at points where it is uniquely defined. However, for now just pretend that it is a well-defined continuous function, and I will come back to this later.
We now find that $mathbb{R}vtimes[-1,1]u$ contains the unit disk. Most importantly the intersection of the unit disk with $(1,infty)vtimes[-1,1]u$ is fully contained in either $(1,infty)vtimes[-1,0]u$ or $(1,infty)vtimes[0,1]u$, due to the triangle inequality. If for some $theta$ this intersection lies in one of the two, then if we move $theta$ such that the new $v(theta)$ is where the old $u(theta)$ was, the intersection will lie in the other one. For some $theta$ in between, we must therefore have that the intersection lies in neither. Therefore the unit disk will be contained in $[-1,1]vtimes[-1,1]u$.
Finally, to come back to the little problem. For such problematic $theta$ you can imagine fixing $v(theta)$ while moving $u(theta)$ continuously along the set of all possible values.
This is a little bit heuristic, but I hope it is convincing anyways.
$endgroup$
Consider a sheer $A(x,y):=(x,y-x)$ and then the norm $|(x,y)|:=|A(x,y)|_1$. Then $|(1,0)|=2$ but $|(1,1)|=1$.
Interestingly though, for every norm $|cdot|:mathbb{R}^2to[0,infty)$ there exists a linear map $A:mathbb{R}^2tomathbb{R}^2$ such that $|cdot|circ A$ is an absolutely monotonic norm.
To prove this, note that a norm is absolutely monotonic if (and only if, may I add) the smallest axis-aligned rectangle containing the unit disk touches the unit circle at the intersections with the $x$- and $y$-axis. This is a consequence of the triangle inequality. So if we find vectors $v$ and $u$ on the unit sphere such that the unit disk is contained in the parallellogram $[-1,1]vtimes[-1,1]u$, then the unique linear map that sends $v$ to $(1,0)$ and $u$ to $(0,1)$ suffices.
In order to find such $v$ and $u$, we will use the intermediate value theorem. For any angle $theta$ let $v(theta)$ be the unique vector on the unit sphere with angle $theta$ with respect to the origin. The uniqueness follows from the scaling property and the non-degeneracy of norms, and the continuity follows from the triangle inequality. Then let $u(theta)$ be the vector on the unit sphere furthest to the left of the line generated by $v(theta)$. A little bit of a problem here is that $u(theta)$ is not always uniquely defined, and $thetamapsto u(theta)$ is only continuous at points where it is uniquely defined. However, for now just pretend that it is a well-defined continuous function, and I will come back to this later.
We now find that $mathbb{R}vtimes[-1,1]u$ contains the unit disk. Most importantly the intersection of the unit disk with $(1,infty)vtimes[-1,1]u$ is fully contained in either $(1,infty)vtimes[-1,0]u$ or $(1,infty)vtimes[0,1]u$, due to the triangle inequality. If for some $theta$ this intersection lies in one of the two, then if we move $theta$ such that the new $v(theta)$ is where the old $u(theta)$ was, the intersection will lie in the other one. For some $theta$ in between, we must therefore have that the intersection lies in neither. Therefore the unit disk will be contained in $[-1,1]vtimes[-1,1]u$.
Finally, to come back to the little problem. For such problematic $theta$ you can imagine fixing $v(theta)$ while moving $u(theta)$ continuously along the set of all possible values.
This is a little bit heuristic, but I hope it is convincing anyways.
edited Dec 14 '18 at 20:14
answered Dec 14 '18 at 15:04
SmileyCraftSmileyCraft
3,561518
3,561518
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I would like to give an answer similar to Smiley-Craft but from a different point of view:
The standard norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ is given by $|(a,b)|= sqrt {a^2+b^2}$. We can define a similar norm using a different basis.
Given $u,v$ a basis of $mathbb{R}^2$. We can define the norm of $w$ by $$|w| = sqrt{a^2+b^2}$$ where $w=au+bv$.
It is an easy exercise to show that this is indeed a norm (same proof as in the standard norm case).
Since we can change coordinates it will be really easy to define a non-monotonic norm:
For instance choose $u=(frac{1}{2},0)$ and $v=(1,1)$ then $|(1,0)| = 2$ while $|(1,1)| = 1$.
Side note: It is an interesting question whether every norm is absolutely monotonic with respect to some basis. I would guess the answer is yes but I don't know how to approach this question yet.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
One question: $(1,0) = 2cdot(frac{1}{2}, 0) + 0 cdot (1,1)$, so with the norm $|cdot|$ as you define it, wouldn't we then have $|(1,0)| = sqrt{2^2 + 0^2} = 2$, instead of $sqrt{2}$, as you write?
$endgroup$
– zxmkn
Dec 14 '18 at 16:02
$begingroup$
I would like to say that this is indeed a very good intuitive approach. It is also how I found my example. About your side note: I believe I know how to prove this, but the margin of a comment is too narrow to contain ;) Where should I write this?
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Dec 14 '18 at 16:13
$begingroup$
@zxmkn You're right, corrected.
$endgroup$
– Yanko
Dec 14 '18 at 19:25
$begingroup$
@SmileyCraft haha. If you want I can ask this question and you can add your answer.
$endgroup$
– Yanko
Dec 14 '18 at 19:27
1
$begingroup$
I edited my own answer to include this interesting piece of trivia.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Dec 14 '18 at 20:17
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I would like to give an answer similar to Smiley-Craft but from a different point of view:
The standard norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ is given by $|(a,b)|= sqrt {a^2+b^2}$. We can define a similar norm using a different basis.
Given $u,v$ a basis of $mathbb{R}^2$. We can define the norm of $w$ by $$|w| = sqrt{a^2+b^2}$$ where $w=au+bv$.
It is an easy exercise to show that this is indeed a norm (same proof as in the standard norm case).
Since we can change coordinates it will be really easy to define a non-monotonic norm:
For instance choose $u=(frac{1}{2},0)$ and $v=(1,1)$ then $|(1,0)| = 2$ while $|(1,1)| = 1$.
Side note: It is an interesting question whether every norm is absolutely monotonic with respect to some basis. I would guess the answer is yes but I don't know how to approach this question yet.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
One question: $(1,0) = 2cdot(frac{1}{2}, 0) + 0 cdot (1,1)$, so with the norm $|cdot|$ as you define it, wouldn't we then have $|(1,0)| = sqrt{2^2 + 0^2} = 2$, instead of $sqrt{2}$, as you write?
$endgroup$
– zxmkn
Dec 14 '18 at 16:02
$begingroup$
I would like to say that this is indeed a very good intuitive approach. It is also how I found my example. About your side note: I believe I know how to prove this, but the margin of a comment is too narrow to contain ;) Where should I write this?
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Dec 14 '18 at 16:13
$begingroup$
@zxmkn You're right, corrected.
$endgroup$
– Yanko
Dec 14 '18 at 19:25
$begingroup$
@SmileyCraft haha. If you want I can ask this question and you can add your answer.
$endgroup$
– Yanko
Dec 14 '18 at 19:27
1
$begingroup$
I edited my own answer to include this interesting piece of trivia.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Dec 14 '18 at 20:17
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I would like to give an answer similar to Smiley-Craft but from a different point of view:
The standard norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ is given by $|(a,b)|= sqrt {a^2+b^2}$. We can define a similar norm using a different basis.
Given $u,v$ a basis of $mathbb{R}^2$. We can define the norm of $w$ by $$|w| = sqrt{a^2+b^2}$$ where $w=au+bv$.
It is an easy exercise to show that this is indeed a norm (same proof as in the standard norm case).
Since we can change coordinates it will be really easy to define a non-monotonic norm:
For instance choose $u=(frac{1}{2},0)$ and $v=(1,1)$ then $|(1,0)| = 2$ while $|(1,1)| = 1$.
Side note: It is an interesting question whether every norm is absolutely monotonic with respect to some basis. I would guess the answer is yes but I don't know how to approach this question yet.
$endgroup$
I would like to give an answer similar to Smiley-Craft but from a different point of view:
The standard norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ is given by $|(a,b)|= sqrt {a^2+b^2}$. We can define a similar norm using a different basis.
Given $u,v$ a basis of $mathbb{R}^2$. We can define the norm of $w$ by $$|w| = sqrt{a^2+b^2}$$ where $w=au+bv$.
It is an easy exercise to show that this is indeed a norm (same proof as in the standard norm case).
Since we can change coordinates it will be really easy to define a non-monotonic norm:
For instance choose $u=(frac{1}{2},0)$ and $v=(1,1)$ then $|(1,0)| = 2$ while $|(1,1)| = 1$.
Side note: It is an interesting question whether every norm is absolutely monotonic with respect to some basis. I would guess the answer is yes but I don't know how to approach this question yet.
edited Dec 14 '18 at 19:25
answered Dec 14 '18 at 15:15
YankoYanko
7,4801729
7,4801729
$begingroup$
One question: $(1,0) = 2cdot(frac{1}{2}, 0) + 0 cdot (1,1)$, so with the norm $|cdot|$ as you define it, wouldn't we then have $|(1,0)| = sqrt{2^2 + 0^2} = 2$, instead of $sqrt{2}$, as you write?
$endgroup$
– zxmkn
Dec 14 '18 at 16:02
$begingroup$
I would like to say that this is indeed a very good intuitive approach. It is also how I found my example. About your side note: I believe I know how to prove this, but the margin of a comment is too narrow to contain ;) Where should I write this?
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Dec 14 '18 at 16:13
$begingroup$
@zxmkn You're right, corrected.
$endgroup$
– Yanko
Dec 14 '18 at 19:25
$begingroup$
@SmileyCraft haha. If you want I can ask this question and you can add your answer.
$endgroup$
– Yanko
Dec 14 '18 at 19:27
1
$begingroup$
I edited my own answer to include this interesting piece of trivia.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Dec 14 '18 at 20:17
add a comment |
$begingroup$
One question: $(1,0) = 2cdot(frac{1}{2}, 0) + 0 cdot (1,1)$, so with the norm $|cdot|$ as you define it, wouldn't we then have $|(1,0)| = sqrt{2^2 + 0^2} = 2$, instead of $sqrt{2}$, as you write?
$endgroup$
– zxmkn
Dec 14 '18 at 16:02
$begingroup$
I would like to say that this is indeed a very good intuitive approach. It is also how I found my example. About your side note: I believe I know how to prove this, but the margin of a comment is too narrow to contain ;) Where should I write this?
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Dec 14 '18 at 16:13
$begingroup$
@zxmkn You're right, corrected.
$endgroup$
– Yanko
Dec 14 '18 at 19:25
$begingroup$
@SmileyCraft haha. If you want I can ask this question and you can add your answer.
$endgroup$
– Yanko
Dec 14 '18 at 19:27
1
$begingroup$
I edited my own answer to include this interesting piece of trivia.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Dec 14 '18 at 20:17
$begingroup$
One question: $(1,0) = 2cdot(frac{1}{2}, 0) + 0 cdot (1,1)$, so with the norm $|cdot|$ as you define it, wouldn't we then have $|(1,0)| = sqrt{2^2 + 0^2} = 2$, instead of $sqrt{2}$, as you write?
$endgroup$
– zxmkn
Dec 14 '18 at 16:02
$begingroup$
One question: $(1,0) = 2cdot(frac{1}{2}, 0) + 0 cdot (1,1)$, so with the norm $|cdot|$ as you define it, wouldn't we then have $|(1,0)| = sqrt{2^2 + 0^2} = 2$, instead of $sqrt{2}$, as you write?
$endgroup$
– zxmkn
Dec 14 '18 at 16:02
$begingroup$
I would like to say that this is indeed a very good intuitive approach. It is also how I found my example. About your side note: I believe I know how to prove this, but the margin of a comment is too narrow to contain ;) Where should I write this?
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Dec 14 '18 at 16:13
$begingroup$
I would like to say that this is indeed a very good intuitive approach. It is also how I found my example. About your side note: I believe I know how to prove this, but the margin of a comment is too narrow to contain ;) Where should I write this?
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Dec 14 '18 at 16:13
$begingroup$
@zxmkn You're right, corrected.
$endgroup$
– Yanko
Dec 14 '18 at 19:25
$begingroup$
@zxmkn You're right, corrected.
$endgroup$
– Yanko
Dec 14 '18 at 19:25
$begingroup$
@SmileyCraft haha. If you want I can ask this question and you can add your answer.
$endgroup$
– Yanko
Dec 14 '18 at 19:27
$begingroup$
@SmileyCraft haha. If you want I can ask this question and you can add your answer.
$endgroup$
– Yanko
Dec 14 '18 at 19:27
1
1
$begingroup$
I edited my own answer to include this interesting piece of trivia.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Dec 14 '18 at 20:17
$begingroup$
I edited my own answer to include this interesting piece of trivia.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Dec 14 '18 at 20:17
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here's a way to come up with an answer using as little geometric intuition as possible.
The standard norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ can be written as:
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2} mapsto begin{pmatrix}a \ bend{pmatrix}^T begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 \ 0 & 1end{bmatrix} begin{pmatrix} a\ b end{pmatrix} tag{1} $$
or
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2} mapsto a^2 + b^2 tag{2} $$
Which makes it immediately clear that, for arbitrarily chosen $(a_1, b_1)$ and $(a_2, b_2)$ .
$$ frac{a_1^2 le a_2^2 ;;;;text{and};;;; b_1^2 le b_2^2}{a_1^2 + b_1^2 le a_2^2 + b_2^2} tag{3} $$
If we stare at (1) and (2), it suggests that by adding a cross term we can "penalize" negative components, so let's pick a simple one, let's call the new norm $nu$.
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} mapsto begin{pmatrix}a \ bend{pmatrix}^T begin{bmatrix} 1 & 1 \ 0 & 1end{bmatrix} begin{pmatrix} a\ b end{pmatrix} tag{4} $$
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} mapsto a^2 + ab + b^2 tag{5} $$
Let's pick $(a_1, b_1) = (2, 2)$ and $(a_2, b_2) = (-3, 3)$ .
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} 2 \ 2 end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} = 4 + 4 + 4 = 12 tag{6} $$
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} -3 \ 3 end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} = 9 - 9 + 9 = 9 tag{7} $$
So, $(2, 2)$ and $(-3, 3)$ indeed demonstrates that $nu$ is not absolutely monotonic.
All that's left is to verify that it's an actual norm.
The norm axioms are:
$$ nu,(alpha v) = |alpha| ,nu,(v) tag{8} $$
$$ nu,(u+v) le nu,(u) + nu,(v) tag{9} $$
$$ nu,(v) = 0 implies v = vec{0} tag{10} $$
(8) falls out of the fact that matrix multiplication is linear. (10) falls out of the invertibility of $left[begin{smallmatrix}1& 1\0& 1end{smallmatrix}right]$
I think the most straightforward way to prove (9) is to note that the matrix $left[begin{smallmatrix}1& 1\0& 1end{smallmatrix}right]$ is upper triangular and hence its eigenvalues with multiplicity are the multiset ${1, 1}$ . Since all of its eigenvalues are positive, the matrix is positive definite and therefore the quadratic form $nu,(u) = u^T left[begin{smallmatrix}1 & 1 \0 & 1end{smallmatrix}right] u$ is a norm.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here's a way to come up with an answer using as little geometric intuition as possible.
The standard norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ can be written as:
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2} mapsto begin{pmatrix}a \ bend{pmatrix}^T begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 \ 0 & 1end{bmatrix} begin{pmatrix} a\ b end{pmatrix} tag{1} $$
or
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2} mapsto a^2 + b^2 tag{2} $$
Which makes it immediately clear that, for arbitrarily chosen $(a_1, b_1)$ and $(a_2, b_2)$ .
$$ frac{a_1^2 le a_2^2 ;;;;text{and};;;; b_1^2 le b_2^2}{a_1^2 + b_1^2 le a_2^2 + b_2^2} tag{3} $$
If we stare at (1) and (2), it suggests that by adding a cross term we can "penalize" negative components, so let's pick a simple one, let's call the new norm $nu$.
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} mapsto begin{pmatrix}a \ bend{pmatrix}^T begin{bmatrix} 1 & 1 \ 0 & 1end{bmatrix} begin{pmatrix} a\ b end{pmatrix} tag{4} $$
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} mapsto a^2 + ab + b^2 tag{5} $$
Let's pick $(a_1, b_1) = (2, 2)$ and $(a_2, b_2) = (-3, 3)$ .
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} 2 \ 2 end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} = 4 + 4 + 4 = 12 tag{6} $$
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} -3 \ 3 end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} = 9 - 9 + 9 = 9 tag{7} $$
So, $(2, 2)$ and $(-3, 3)$ indeed demonstrates that $nu$ is not absolutely monotonic.
All that's left is to verify that it's an actual norm.
The norm axioms are:
$$ nu,(alpha v) = |alpha| ,nu,(v) tag{8} $$
$$ nu,(u+v) le nu,(u) + nu,(v) tag{9} $$
$$ nu,(v) = 0 implies v = vec{0} tag{10} $$
(8) falls out of the fact that matrix multiplication is linear. (10) falls out of the invertibility of $left[begin{smallmatrix}1& 1\0& 1end{smallmatrix}right]$
I think the most straightforward way to prove (9) is to note that the matrix $left[begin{smallmatrix}1& 1\0& 1end{smallmatrix}right]$ is upper triangular and hence its eigenvalues with multiplicity are the multiset ${1, 1}$ . Since all of its eigenvalues are positive, the matrix is positive definite and therefore the quadratic form $nu,(u) = u^T left[begin{smallmatrix}1 & 1 \0 & 1end{smallmatrix}right] u$ is a norm.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here's a way to come up with an answer using as little geometric intuition as possible.
The standard norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ can be written as:
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2} mapsto begin{pmatrix}a \ bend{pmatrix}^T begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 \ 0 & 1end{bmatrix} begin{pmatrix} a\ b end{pmatrix} tag{1} $$
or
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2} mapsto a^2 + b^2 tag{2} $$
Which makes it immediately clear that, for arbitrarily chosen $(a_1, b_1)$ and $(a_2, b_2)$ .
$$ frac{a_1^2 le a_2^2 ;;;;text{and};;;; b_1^2 le b_2^2}{a_1^2 + b_1^2 le a_2^2 + b_2^2} tag{3} $$
If we stare at (1) and (2), it suggests that by adding a cross term we can "penalize" negative components, so let's pick a simple one, let's call the new norm $nu$.
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} mapsto begin{pmatrix}a \ bend{pmatrix}^T begin{bmatrix} 1 & 1 \ 0 & 1end{bmatrix} begin{pmatrix} a\ b end{pmatrix} tag{4} $$
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} mapsto a^2 + ab + b^2 tag{5} $$
Let's pick $(a_1, b_1) = (2, 2)$ and $(a_2, b_2) = (-3, 3)$ .
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} 2 \ 2 end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} = 4 + 4 + 4 = 12 tag{6} $$
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} -3 \ 3 end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} = 9 - 9 + 9 = 9 tag{7} $$
So, $(2, 2)$ and $(-3, 3)$ indeed demonstrates that $nu$ is not absolutely monotonic.
All that's left is to verify that it's an actual norm.
The norm axioms are:
$$ nu,(alpha v) = |alpha| ,nu,(v) tag{8} $$
$$ nu,(u+v) le nu,(u) + nu,(v) tag{9} $$
$$ nu,(v) = 0 implies v = vec{0} tag{10} $$
(8) falls out of the fact that matrix multiplication is linear. (10) falls out of the invertibility of $left[begin{smallmatrix}1& 1\0& 1end{smallmatrix}right]$
I think the most straightforward way to prove (9) is to note that the matrix $left[begin{smallmatrix}1& 1\0& 1end{smallmatrix}right]$ is upper triangular and hence its eigenvalues with multiplicity are the multiset ${1, 1}$ . Since all of its eigenvalues are positive, the matrix is positive definite and therefore the quadratic form $nu,(u) = u^T left[begin{smallmatrix}1 & 1 \0 & 1end{smallmatrix}right] u$ is a norm.
$endgroup$
Here's a way to come up with an answer using as little geometric intuition as possible.
The standard norm on $mathbb{R}^2$ can be written as:
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2} mapsto begin{pmatrix}a \ bend{pmatrix}^T begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 \ 0 & 1end{bmatrix} begin{pmatrix} a\ b end{pmatrix} tag{1} $$
or
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2} mapsto a^2 + b^2 tag{2} $$
Which makes it immediately clear that, for arbitrarily chosen $(a_1, b_1)$ and $(a_2, b_2)$ .
$$ frac{a_1^2 le a_2^2 ;;;;text{and};;;; b_1^2 le b_2^2}{a_1^2 + b_1^2 le a_2^2 + b_2^2} tag{3} $$
If we stare at (1) and (2), it suggests that by adding a cross term we can "penalize" negative components, so let's pick a simple one, let's call the new norm $nu$.
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} mapsto begin{pmatrix}a \ bend{pmatrix}^T begin{bmatrix} 1 & 1 \ 0 & 1end{bmatrix} begin{pmatrix} a\ b end{pmatrix} tag{4} $$
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} a \ b end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} mapsto a^2 + ab + b^2 tag{5} $$
Let's pick $(a_1, b_1) = (2, 2)$ and $(a_2, b_2) = (-3, 3)$ .
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} 2 \ 2 end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} = 4 + 4 + 4 = 12 tag{6} $$
$$ leftVert begin{pmatrix} -3 \ 3 end{pmatrix} rightVert^{;2}_{,nu} = 9 - 9 + 9 = 9 tag{7} $$
So, $(2, 2)$ and $(-3, 3)$ indeed demonstrates that $nu$ is not absolutely monotonic.
All that's left is to verify that it's an actual norm.
The norm axioms are:
$$ nu,(alpha v) = |alpha| ,nu,(v) tag{8} $$
$$ nu,(u+v) le nu,(u) + nu,(v) tag{9} $$
$$ nu,(v) = 0 implies v = vec{0} tag{10} $$
(8) falls out of the fact that matrix multiplication is linear. (10) falls out of the invertibility of $left[begin{smallmatrix}1& 1\0& 1end{smallmatrix}right]$
I think the most straightforward way to prove (9) is to note that the matrix $left[begin{smallmatrix}1& 1\0& 1end{smallmatrix}right]$ is upper triangular and hence its eigenvalues with multiplicity are the multiset ${1, 1}$ . Since all of its eigenvalues are positive, the matrix is positive definite and therefore the quadratic form $nu,(u) = u^T left[begin{smallmatrix}1 & 1 \0 & 1end{smallmatrix}right] u$ is a norm.
answered Dec 14 '18 at 22:39
community wiki
Gregory Nisbet
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3039462%2fexample-of-norm-on-mathbbr2-thats-not-absolutely-monotonic%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown