Can unconscious characters be unwilling?












11












$begingroup$


Some spells like enlarge/reduce and polymorph specify that only an unwilling creature makes a saving throw:




If the target is unwilling, it can make a Constitution saving throw.




and




An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect.




... but is an unconscious character able to make this judgment (and therefore be eligible to a saving throw)?



Mind you, I've seen this related question on opting in to certain spells, but I'm specifically asking about opting out so as to be eligible for the saving throws.






dnd-5e spells saving-throw unconscious







share|improve this question









$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @NautArch The default position is neither unwilling nor willing. Selecting either is its own choice. It is not overwhelmingly clear that being (un)able to choose one is equivalent to being (un)able to choose another
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    yesterday








  • 7




    $begingroup$
    I'm not sure this is a duplicate because after reading the other question I can get 2 answers for this one 1: "An unconscious character can't make the decision to be willing so an unconscious character can't make the decision to be unwilling either". or 2: "An unconscious character can't be willing so that must mean that it is always unwilling". By the definition of a duplicate the answer should be obvious
    $endgroup$
    – Sdjz
    yesterday








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @illustro I care in no way about willing. "Unwilling" is a completely different term. They are not a direct dichotomy and proving something about willingness says nothing about unwillingness.
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Joshua an unconscious character automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saves, but not Constitution saves.
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    yesterday








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    A discussion about whether this is a duplicate of a couple related questions can be found on the Meta site for RPG.SE
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    10 hours ago
















11












$begingroup$


Some spells like enlarge/reduce and polymorph specify that only an unwilling creature makes a saving throw:




If the target is unwilling, it can make a Constitution saving throw.




and




An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect.




... but is an unconscious character able to make this judgment (and therefore be eligible to a saving throw)?



Mind you, I've seen this related question on opting in to certain spells, but I'm specifically asking about opting out so as to be eligible for the saving throws.






dnd-5e spells saving-throw unconscious







share|improve this question









$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @NautArch The default position is neither unwilling nor willing. Selecting either is its own choice. It is not overwhelmingly clear that being (un)able to choose one is equivalent to being (un)able to choose another
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    yesterday








  • 7




    $begingroup$
    I'm not sure this is a duplicate because after reading the other question I can get 2 answers for this one 1: "An unconscious character can't make the decision to be willing so an unconscious character can't make the decision to be unwilling either". or 2: "An unconscious character can't be willing so that must mean that it is always unwilling". By the definition of a duplicate the answer should be obvious
    $endgroup$
    – Sdjz
    yesterday








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @illustro I care in no way about willing. "Unwilling" is a completely different term. They are not a direct dichotomy and proving something about willingness says nothing about unwillingness.
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Joshua an unconscious character automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saves, but not Constitution saves.
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    yesterday








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    A discussion about whether this is a duplicate of a couple related questions can be found on the Meta site for RPG.SE
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    10 hours ago














11












11








11


1



$begingroup$


Some spells like enlarge/reduce and polymorph specify that only an unwilling creature makes a saving throw:




If the target is unwilling, it can make a Constitution saving throw.




and




An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect.




... but is an unconscious character able to make this judgment (and therefore be eligible to a saving throw)?



Mind you, I've seen this related question on opting in to certain spells, but I'm specifically asking about opting out so as to be eligible for the saving throws.






dnd-5e spells saving-throw unconscious







share|improve this question









$endgroup$




Some spells like enlarge/reduce and polymorph specify that only an unwilling creature makes a saving throw:




If the target is unwilling, it can make a Constitution saving throw.




and




An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect.




... but is an unconscious character able to make this judgment (and therefore be eligible to a saving throw)?



Mind you, I've seen this related question on opting in to certain spells, but I'm specifically asking about opting out so as to be eligible for the saving throws.






dnd-5e spells saving-throw unconscious




dnd-5e spells saving-throw unconscious






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked yesterday









David CoffronDavid Coffron

37.6k3130265




37.6k3130265








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @NautArch The default position is neither unwilling nor willing. Selecting either is its own choice. It is not overwhelmingly clear that being (un)able to choose one is equivalent to being (un)able to choose another
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    yesterday








  • 7




    $begingroup$
    I'm not sure this is a duplicate because after reading the other question I can get 2 answers for this one 1: "An unconscious character can't make the decision to be willing so an unconscious character can't make the decision to be unwilling either". or 2: "An unconscious character can't be willing so that must mean that it is always unwilling". By the definition of a duplicate the answer should be obvious
    $endgroup$
    – Sdjz
    yesterday








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @illustro I care in no way about willing. "Unwilling" is a completely different term. They are not a direct dichotomy and proving something about willingness says nothing about unwillingness.
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Joshua an unconscious character automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saves, but not Constitution saves.
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    yesterday








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    A discussion about whether this is a duplicate of a couple related questions can be found on the Meta site for RPG.SE
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    10 hours ago














  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @NautArch The default position is neither unwilling nor willing. Selecting either is its own choice. It is not overwhelmingly clear that being (un)able to choose one is equivalent to being (un)able to choose another
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    yesterday








  • 7




    $begingroup$
    I'm not sure this is a duplicate because after reading the other question I can get 2 answers for this one 1: "An unconscious character can't make the decision to be willing so an unconscious character can't make the decision to be unwilling either". or 2: "An unconscious character can't be willing so that must mean that it is always unwilling". By the definition of a duplicate the answer should be obvious
    $endgroup$
    – Sdjz
    yesterday








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @illustro I care in no way about willing. "Unwilling" is a completely different term. They are not a direct dichotomy and proving something about willingness says nothing about unwillingness.
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Joshua an unconscious character automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saves, but not Constitution saves.
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    yesterday








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    A discussion about whether this is a duplicate of a couple related questions can be found on the Meta site for RPG.SE
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    10 hours ago








2




2




$begingroup$
@NautArch The default position is neither unwilling nor willing. Selecting either is its own choice. It is not overwhelmingly clear that being (un)able to choose one is equivalent to being (un)able to choose another
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
yesterday






$begingroup$
@NautArch The default position is neither unwilling nor willing. Selecting either is its own choice. It is not overwhelmingly clear that being (un)able to choose one is equivalent to being (un)able to choose another
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
yesterday






7




7




$begingroup$
I'm not sure this is a duplicate because after reading the other question I can get 2 answers for this one 1: "An unconscious character can't make the decision to be willing so an unconscious character can't make the decision to be unwilling either". or 2: "An unconscious character can't be willing so that must mean that it is always unwilling". By the definition of a duplicate the answer should be obvious
$endgroup$
– Sdjz
yesterday






$begingroup$
I'm not sure this is a duplicate because after reading the other question I can get 2 answers for this one 1: "An unconscious character can't make the decision to be willing so an unconscious character can't make the decision to be unwilling either". or 2: "An unconscious character can't be willing so that must mean that it is always unwilling". By the definition of a duplicate the answer should be obvious
$endgroup$
– Sdjz
yesterday






2




2




$begingroup$
@illustro I care in no way about willing. "Unwilling" is a completely different term. They are not a direct dichotomy and proving something about willingness says nothing about unwillingness.
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
yesterday




$begingroup$
@illustro I care in no way about willing. "Unwilling" is a completely different term. They are not a direct dichotomy and proving something about willingness says nothing about unwillingness.
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
yesterday




1




1




$begingroup$
@Joshua an unconscious character automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saves, but not Constitution saves.
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
yesterday






$begingroup$
@Joshua an unconscious character automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saves, but not Constitution saves.
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
yesterday






3




3




$begingroup$
A discussion about whether this is a duplicate of a couple related questions can be found on the Meta site for RPG.SE
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
10 hours ago




$begingroup$
A discussion about whether this is a duplicate of a couple related questions can be found on the Meta site for RPG.SE
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
10 hours ago










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















13












$begingroup$

It is up to the DM



"Willing" and "unwilling" are not game terms and are not defined anywhere in the rules and thus we are stuck with generic definitions.




Unwilling:




  1. not willing; reluctant; loath; averse:

  2. opposed; offering resistance; stubborn or obstinate; refractory:




"Willing" at least is pretty clearly a choice, you are mentally choosing to consent to something. "Unwilling" is much less clear.



Unwilling has at least two opposed ways to interpret it



As per the above definition, "unwilling" can mean, in broad strokes, "the absence of willingness" (thus an unconscious person would be by default unwilling) or it can mean "opposed" (which requires a conscious decision and thus an unconscious creature would not be considered unwilling).



Depending on what definition you are using either you must choose to be (un)willing and not choosing either means you are neither or you are always one or the other. Both are valid definitions.



DM decides ambiguities



The term is ambiguous, in other words, and the person who decides that at your table will be the DM. There is simply no way to magic away the ambiguity of the English language in this case.



At my table



For what it is worth, in my games, I treat all characters as being unwilling unless they are explicitly willing and have had no issues, confusion, or complaints.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 4




    $begingroup$
    I'd agree with your interpretation/ruling. Anyone that's not actually willing is unwilling.
    $endgroup$
    – V2Blast
    yesterday











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1 Answer
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1 Answer
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active

oldest

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13












$begingroup$

It is up to the DM



"Willing" and "unwilling" are not game terms and are not defined anywhere in the rules and thus we are stuck with generic definitions.




Unwilling:




  1. not willing; reluctant; loath; averse:

  2. opposed; offering resistance; stubborn or obstinate; refractory:




"Willing" at least is pretty clearly a choice, you are mentally choosing to consent to something. "Unwilling" is much less clear.



Unwilling has at least two opposed ways to interpret it



As per the above definition, "unwilling" can mean, in broad strokes, "the absence of willingness" (thus an unconscious person would be by default unwilling) or it can mean "opposed" (which requires a conscious decision and thus an unconscious creature would not be considered unwilling).



Depending on what definition you are using either you must choose to be (un)willing and not choosing either means you are neither or you are always one or the other. Both are valid definitions.



DM decides ambiguities



The term is ambiguous, in other words, and the person who decides that at your table will be the DM. There is simply no way to magic away the ambiguity of the English language in this case.



At my table



For what it is worth, in my games, I treat all characters as being unwilling unless they are explicitly willing and have had no issues, confusion, or complaints.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 4




    $begingroup$
    I'd agree with your interpretation/ruling. Anyone that's not actually willing is unwilling.
    $endgroup$
    – V2Blast
    yesterday
















13












$begingroup$

It is up to the DM



"Willing" and "unwilling" are not game terms and are not defined anywhere in the rules and thus we are stuck with generic definitions.




Unwilling:




  1. not willing; reluctant; loath; averse:

  2. opposed; offering resistance; stubborn or obstinate; refractory:




"Willing" at least is pretty clearly a choice, you are mentally choosing to consent to something. "Unwilling" is much less clear.



Unwilling has at least two opposed ways to interpret it



As per the above definition, "unwilling" can mean, in broad strokes, "the absence of willingness" (thus an unconscious person would be by default unwilling) or it can mean "opposed" (which requires a conscious decision and thus an unconscious creature would not be considered unwilling).



Depending on what definition you are using either you must choose to be (un)willing and not choosing either means you are neither or you are always one or the other. Both are valid definitions.



DM decides ambiguities



The term is ambiguous, in other words, and the person who decides that at your table will be the DM. There is simply no way to magic away the ambiguity of the English language in this case.



At my table



For what it is worth, in my games, I treat all characters as being unwilling unless they are explicitly willing and have had no issues, confusion, or complaints.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 4




    $begingroup$
    I'd agree with your interpretation/ruling. Anyone that's not actually willing is unwilling.
    $endgroup$
    – V2Blast
    yesterday














13












13








13





$begingroup$

It is up to the DM



"Willing" and "unwilling" are not game terms and are not defined anywhere in the rules and thus we are stuck with generic definitions.




Unwilling:




  1. not willing; reluctant; loath; averse:

  2. opposed; offering resistance; stubborn or obstinate; refractory:




"Willing" at least is pretty clearly a choice, you are mentally choosing to consent to something. "Unwilling" is much less clear.



Unwilling has at least two opposed ways to interpret it



As per the above definition, "unwilling" can mean, in broad strokes, "the absence of willingness" (thus an unconscious person would be by default unwilling) or it can mean "opposed" (which requires a conscious decision and thus an unconscious creature would not be considered unwilling).



Depending on what definition you are using either you must choose to be (un)willing and not choosing either means you are neither or you are always one or the other. Both are valid definitions.



DM decides ambiguities



The term is ambiguous, in other words, and the person who decides that at your table will be the DM. There is simply no way to magic away the ambiguity of the English language in this case.



At my table



For what it is worth, in my games, I treat all characters as being unwilling unless they are explicitly willing and have had no issues, confusion, or complaints.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



It is up to the DM



"Willing" and "unwilling" are not game terms and are not defined anywhere in the rules and thus we are stuck with generic definitions.




Unwilling:




  1. not willing; reluctant; loath; averse:

  2. opposed; offering resistance; stubborn or obstinate; refractory:




"Willing" at least is pretty clearly a choice, you are mentally choosing to consent to something. "Unwilling" is much less clear.



Unwilling has at least two opposed ways to interpret it



As per the above definition, "unwilling" can mean, in broad strokes, "the absence of willingness" (thus an unconscious person would be by default unwilling) or it can mean "opposed" (which requires a conscious decision and thus an unconscious creature would not be considered unwilling).



Depending on what definition you are using either you must choose to be (un)willing and not choosing either means you are neither or you are always one or the other. Both are valid definitions.



DM decides ambiguities



The term is ambiguous, in other words, and the person who decides that at your table will be the DM. There is simply no way to magic away the ambiguity of the English language in this case.



At my table



For what it is worth, in my games, I treat all characters as being unwilling unless they are explicitly willing and have had no issues, confusion, or complaints.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited yesterday

























answered yesterday









RubiksmooseRubiksmoose

58.4k10284433




58.4k10284433








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    I'd agree with your interpretation/ruling. Anyone that's not actually willing is unwilling.
    $endgroup$
    – V2Blast
    yesterday














  • 4




    $begingroup$
    I'd agree with your interpretation/ruling. Anyone that's not actually willing is unwilling.
    $endgroup$
    – V2Blast
    yesterday








4




4




$begingroup$
I'd agree with your interpretation/ruling. Anyone that's not actually willing is unwilling.
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
yesterday




$begingroup$
I'd agree with your interpretation/ruling. Anyone that's not actually willing is unwilling.
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
yesterday


















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